Helms Deep

[Phervasaion]

I was just wondering. At the battle of helms deep, do you think that the Rohirrim still could have won even if Gandalf and Erkenbrand had not turned up in the last minute. I thought the orcs and wild men were fleeing at the sight of the forest and King Theoden before Gandalf showed up at the battle.

[Olorin_TLA]

I think without the reinforcement's psychological effect the enemiwes would have escaped the route Gandalf appeared, if they would have run at all.

[Knight of Gondor]

I suppose if the trees remained as a part of the fighting force, the Uruk-hai wouldn't have stood a very good chance. It's so hard to kill an Ent, so that even the fighting force of Saruman could scarce make much of a mark against their anger. Most of their torches (fire would probably be the best [in this case, worst] weapon to use on an ent) would have been dropeed, because it made the Uruks easy targets for archers.

[rutslegolas]

ya i too think the Riders would have won even if Gandalf would not have arrived with Erekenband,I think the orcs would have been hell scared of the trres and would not have dared to hurt them or run into them ,but they could have escaped Gandalf's way.

[The Only Real Estel]

Hmmm.

1. Althought the orcs were intially scared of the Riders, I'm sure it wouldn't take them that long to realize that there was-what?- less than a hundred of them left? Eventually the Riders would've been cut down if the Uruks didn't flee up the steep hill that Gandalf wasn't there to come down.

2. If the Uruks did flee, they would've escaped the Riders & regrouped, sooner or later the Riders would've fallen.

3. If the Uruk-Hai would've run from the Riders into the Trees, yeah, the Riders would've won-but-the only reason the Uruks went there in the books was because Gandalf & co. were stopping the other gap.

My opinion is that if the Uruks would've stood & fought, the Riders would've gone down, if the Uruks would've fled, the Riders would eventually have gone down. In other words (): I think the Uruk-Hais would've won.

[Boromir88]

If Gandalf and Erkenbrand wouldn't of arrived when they did I believe Helm's deep would of fallen, but then would of been killed. To explain, you had Theoden, Legolas, Aragorn, and probably a few others, when Theoden decided to ride out and meet them. Gimli, Eomer and his men were still fighting in the caves I believe. So if Gandalf wouldn't of come when he did Theoden and all who rode out probably would of been killed along with Eomer and Gimli. But then you have Gandalf and company arriving and the Huorns guarding the forest so they wouldn't of gone far.

[Orophin]

I think that they would have won for the moment. The final charge of Theoden and Aragorn was a last ditch type effort and they succeeded in driving back the Uruk-hai, but I think that if the forest of Huorns and Erkenbrand hadn't taken care of the rest then they probably would have regrouped and attcked Helm's deep again. The Rohirrim might have been able to hold them up. I personally do not think that they could have.

[haltred]

[B]It would have to quote the Duke of Wellington "a close run thing" if Gandalf et al adn't shown up. It is possible that Helms Deep might hav e been over run leading to a massacare of epic propotions. Of course maybe they would have fought them to a standstill.

[Gashberz]

wow um. the Uruks would've been scared at first but then they would have regrouped and eventually killed all the riders because there was only like 100 of them left.
-cheers

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Quite interesting speculation. I've always been rather irritated with the way both Bakshi and PJ portray the charge of Theoden at Helm's Deep. Rereading the few pages on the battle in TTT, and an interesting discussion in The Atlas of Middle-earth it seems to me that there were probably a total of about 1,500-1,800 effective Rohirric fighters (the majority on foot), versus 8-10,000 effective orcs/dunlendings. Given Theoden's charge impetus the Rohirric forces could have formed a strong effective defense for some time.

But the more interesting speculation for me is assuming the ents didn't assist at Hlem's Deep, then what? You still have Gandalf and Erkenbrand charging down while Theoden/Aragorn hold a defensive line in front.
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"Down through the breach in the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear."
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It would seem strongly possible that this would have led to a retreat, and significant loss, of Saruman's forces, but enough could have withdrawn to form a defense of Isengard. Saruman would have been defeated, but the Rohirrim a) weakened with some more losses b) need to have kept forces in around Isengard c) been delayed (and with a lesser force?) to Minas Tirith, leading to a sacking of Minas Tirith- but not necessarily the quest failing, since Sauron's forces and his attention would have been drawn even more away from Mordor.

[Isowen]

I don't think they would have won without Gandalf's help, and the riders of rohan. I don't think Gandalf thought they could either because he said "when the sun rises, look to the east" where he appeared, mid-battle. They were still outnumbered though, even if most of them hadn't died!