A Lost Cause - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Perky Ent · 07-25-2004, 12:37 PM

In Appendix A, it says

Quote:

The last leaders of the Faithful, Elendil and his sons, escaped from the Downfall with nine ships, bearing a seedling of Nimloth, and the Seven Seeing-stones (gifts of the Elder to their House); and they were borne on the wind of a great storm and cast upon the shores of Middle-Earth

According to the quote, only the leaders of the faithful escaped to Middle-Earth. This brings up the question to which this thread was made: Were the rest of the Faithful lost? Nine ships left, but was it enough to take all the faithful with them. If not, it was a lost cause. And if they did in fact die, with the exception of those chosen by the leaders, the remaining Faithful would either have to have children with another species (which didn't happen), of have a really hard time building a kingdom. Since, by the time of The Last Alliance, the Kingdoms in Exile had a grand army, there must have been a great population. But with just nine ships, who's capacity isn't infinite, could they save all the Faithful, or abandon them to a death they didn't deserve?

Tuor of Gondolin · 07-25-2004, 01:17 PM

Remember that there were settlements and vistings from Numenor to Middle-earth for some time.
Check out this Michael Martinez essay.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/47755

The Perky Ent · 07-25-2004, 01:26 PM

True, but not as major as Numenor.

piosenniel · 07-25-2004, 01:48 PM

Only a remnant of the Faithful could be saved when Elendil and his sons managed to escape Numenor.

Brief history:

Quote:

The Faithful were the minority of the Numenoreans who remained friendly with the Eldar and obedient to the Valar, despite their fear of Death and the Doom of Men. The Faithful arose about SA 2300 and founded Pelargir in 2350 as their chief haven in Middle-earth. They continued to sail to the northern coasts of Middle-earth and aid Gil-galad against Sauron. Beginning with the accession of Ar-Gimilzor c. 3100, the Faithful were actively persecuted, being punished for speaking Eldarin or meeting with the Eladar of Tol Eressea. The Faithful were forced to move from western Numenor to the east, where Romenna became their chief city; many emigrated to Lindon. During the captivity of Sauron in Numenor (3263 - 3319) the Faithful, now led by Amandil, Lord of Andunie, were bitterly oppressed, and some were burned as sacrifices to Melkor in the Temple built by Sauron. Yet in the end a remnant of the Faithful survived the downfall of Numenor and, led by Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion, founded the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor in Middle-earth.

-- Robert Foster; The Complete Guide to Middle-earth; p.169-170 - His references coming from The Return of the King & the Silmarillion

**lindil** · 07-25-2004, 06:40 PM

In addition there were many non-numenoreans in Gondor [of whom the oath breakers were an example] who keapt their fealty to the Line of Earendil, as was already mentioned Arnor had previously been settled as was Pelagir. So whilst the Exiled Numenoreans were probably only a few thousands at most, they very quickly became the leaders of the 'proto-Dunedain' and their non numenorean Allies, plus the Elven armies of Lindon, Lorien, Greenwood and Rivendell. I think Moria was in on it as well, so while Elrond paints a picture of massive resisitance, the number of those who escaped the Downfall was only a very small part of the Last Alliance.

Now what I wonder is how they built Minas Anor and Ithil so fast...

Lhunardawen · 07-25-2004, 07:33 PM

Necessity is the mother of invention. For them to continue thriving as the last of the Numenorean race, they need a place to call their own--and fast.

Didn't the War of the Last Alliance happen a long time (relatively) after the Akallabeth? Because if so, it's understood why the host of Men and Elves was great in number in spite of the fact that those who were saved from the Downfall were but a fraction of it.

Findegil · 07-26-2004, 01:49 AM

The Tale of the Years mentiones for 3320 SA the Foundation of the Realms in Exile. The attack on Minas Ithil with which the war began took place in 3429 SA.

That gives the numenoreans about 100 Years to build their citys and their comunity.
For the city that is time enough, I think but not really for great increas in the population. But it is clear that the forces of the last alliance were much smaller than the army that Ar-Pharazôn had led against Sauron in 3261 SA. Otherwise they would have had a much faster victory.

Respectfully
Findegil

Osse · 07-26-2004, 04:11 AM

Have a look at the Landing of Elendil thread.... seeing as this is about exactly this topic... your questions are answered there!!!!

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10868

**lindil** · 07-28-2004, 03:45 PM

ahh, the follies of trusting to old memories.... thanks for the correction Fin..
I agree 100 years could - if the motivation was high, build Minas Anor and Ithil. my faulty memory had them with far less years.

good scavenging Osse!

07-25-2004, 01:26 PM	#3
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	True, but not as major as Numenor. __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

07-25-2004, 06:40 PM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	In addition there were many non-numenoreans in Gondor [of whom the oath breakers were an example] who keapt their fealty to the Line of Earendil, as was already mentioned Arnor had previously been settled as was Pelagir. So whilst the Exiled Numenoreans were probably only a few thousands at most, they very quickly became the leaders of the 'proto-Dunedain' and their non numenorean Allies, plus the Elven armies of Lindon, Lorien, Greenwood and Rivendell. I think Moria was in on it as well, so while Elrond paints a picture of massive resisitance, the number of those who escaped the Downfall was only a very small part of the Last Alliance. Now what I wonder is how they built Minas Anor and Ithil so fast... __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-26-2004, 04:11 AM	#8
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Have a look at the Landing of Elendil thread.... seeing as this is about exactly this topic... your questions are answered there!!!! http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10868 __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

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07-25-2004, 01:17 PM	#2
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Remember that there were settlements and vistings from Numenor to Middle-earth for some time. Check out this Michael Martinez essay. http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/47755

07-25-2004, 07:33 PM	#6
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	Necessity is the mother of invention. For them to continue thriving as the last of the Numenorean race, they need a place to call their own--and fast. Didn't the War of the Last Alliance happen a long time (relatively) after the Akallabeth? Because if so, it's understood why the host of Men and Elves was great in number in spite of the fact that those who were saved from the Downfall were but a fraction of it.

07-26-2004, 01:49 AM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The Tale of the Years mentiones for 3320 SA the Foundation of the Realms in Exile. The attack on Minas Ithil with which the war began took place in 3429 SA. That gives the numenoreans about 100 Years to build their citys and their comunity. For the city that is time enough, I think but not really for great increas in the population. But it is clear that the forces of the last alliance were much smaller than the army that Ar-Pharazôn had led against Sauron in 3261 SA. Otherwise they would have had a much faster victory. Respectfully Findegil

07-28-2004, 03:45 PM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	ahh, the follies of trusting to old memories.... thanks for the correction Fin.. I agree 100 years could - if the motivation was high, build Minas Anor and Ithil. my faulty memory had them with far less years. good scavenging Osse!