What happens after LotR?

I believe I've read in some source by Christopher Tolkien that his father once had plans for a new plotline concerning events after the Lord of the Rings, something to do with corruption in Gondor I think. Does anyone have any information on this, or, even better, could you tell me where I saw this written (either in Unfinished Tales or The Silmarillion, I'd say)?

[Finwe]

I believe that you're talking about A New Shadow (or something like that). Tolkien had kind of started to write it, but it was very late in his life, and he quickly discarded the draft. It was to be a story about corruption in Gondor, many many years after Aragorn's death.

[Child of the 7th Age]

For the few scraps we have of this story, see volume XII of the History of Middle-earth (The Peoples of Middle Earth, page 409).

[Lord of Angmar]

Tolkien never discusses in any great detail the ages of the world after the War of the Ring, other than to wrap up events concerning the members of the Fellowship and the Ringbearers. Although he did start a new book, The New Shadow, it was not to be an epic or a major chronicle in Middle-earth history, but simply a period piece, a smaller-scale thriller set in Fourth Age Gondor after the death of King Elessar.

After the War of the Ring, the world became primarily under the dominion of men. The Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Ages, unless I am mistaken, were all ages of Mannish advancement and power. We are, supposedly, now in the Seventh Age of the World (look no further than the name of the BDer who posted before me on this thread [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ).

[Finwe]

I think it was meant to be a sort of weak sequel to Lord of the Rings just as The Hobbit ended up being thought of as a slightly weak prequel (even though LotR was written after he wrote The Hobbit). Tolkien quickly discarded it, probably because he didn't have the energy to write another novel. I, for one, think it would make a rather interesting fan fic or RPG. It's got that nice element of mysterious darkness.

[Lobelia]

I remember vaguely a reference to it in Tolkien's letters somewhere and he abandoned it because it seemed pretty depressing to think of what the world would be like - people would have started to forget what the War of the Ring was all about, kids would be playing at being Orcs, etc. He shuddered at the very thought and dropped it. Wish I could remember which letter it was.

[Lost One]

The problem with the Fourth Age, which Tolkien may have found dispiriting when he began to think about another story, is that it's downhill all the way. Aragorn's reign is a sort of pinnacle when much of the old world still survives - but not for long. The High Elves are all soon gone, and how long before men start felling in Fangorn, buying up the Shire a la Saruman, and taxing travelling dwarves?

[Olorin_TLA]

Weak? Hardly.

It's in Volume 12 of the History of Middle-earth, and it's called "The New Shadow." The opening chapter is complete, but no more was written, though he wrote 3 versions (no huge changes), one of them only 5 years before he died I think.
It's very interesting, and in no may was meant to be weak - he simply didn't continue because he felt that nothing really could eclipse the defeat of 2 incarnations of mythological evil (Morgoth, then Sauron).

The plot is driven by the fact (which saddened Tolkien, understandably!) that Men get bored with Peace and Good very quickly. Boys in Gondor destory things pretending to be Orks (!) , and there is a secret "Satansitic religion" as Tolkien described in his 1973 letter (meaning that they would worhsip Morgoth (maybe Sauron, but more likely Morgoth...hey, most of Numneor did at one dark, dark time) ), and it's leader (or a leader) is named Herumor (literally, "Dark Lord" (one of the great lords of Harad who served Sauron in the 2nd Age was a Black Numenorean bearing this name) ). The main character, Borlas, a very old man of Gondor, (he remembrs the War of the Ring, and this story is after Aragorn's death; it is mentioned that only few now are alive hwo remember it, so a fair comparison would be of Borlas with the few remaining Veterans of the First World War at the moment [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) has told a friend of his son that the son, who works in the King's ships, told Borlas that recently a ship went missing, and some men with it, and that the son says it was just some inexperienced people messing around, who were killed by the swift waters.
The friend then says that he's also ehard that not everybody was satisfied by the "official" explanation: for a start, there were no storms at sea that day, and the sailors were very skilled.
Borlas talks, almost half to himself (as Gandalf does, claiming that old people choose the wisest to talk to: themselves [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ), commenting that no matter how mard men try, evil always reemerges.
The friend then has a discussion wiht Borlas, in which he disturbs him a lot (deliberately, he says after, but still not revealing whether he meant what he said) by countering the old man's righteous speech by telling him that years ago, Borlas had called him orc for destorying unripe fruit, and that his resentment grew until he and his young firends began to play at Orks, tearing and destroying, and in the back of his mind was alays the tempatation to destory Borlas' trees, just to spite him.
When Borlas then counters that what the firend did hurt the tree, however, the friend accuses all Men of being, from a tree's persepctive, the same kind of plague as Orks and cankers.
Anyway, the friend mentions that Borlas is always sticking his nose into larger affairs, never content to elave alone, and that he would not have brought up this subject of reemerging evil if he didn't think there was something reemerging. He then asks if he has heard "the name...of Herumor?" which shocks Borlas, whose reaction also surprises the friend, since the name and the call of Herumor are meant to be a secret. The friend says the numbers of Herumor's follwoers are growing, and that not all are happy in Gondor, nor are they all afraid now after the Great King's (Aragorn's) death. But no matter how hard Borlas presses him, he doesn't say whether he is a follower -in fact, he makes it absoultely impossible through his speech to work out whether he heeded the call or not. However, he tells Borlas that if he want to know mopre, to meet him, cloaked in black outside his house at nightfall. He leaves.
Borlas is left alone, troubled. He thinks of why he was invited. Not to convert him - useless to try! To help the friedn agaisnt Herumor? Who can say? Or to kill him, because he remembers the Old Evil well enough to recognise it for what is was (maybe this memory, he thinks, is why he has been kept alive so long)? His will hardens at the thought that they would seek to kill. He has been challenged, and he will accept.
Night falls. Something stirs in his house, almost imperceptible. And then it happens. From out of sight, but close to him, Borlas recognises the Old Evil for what it is.

*End of Chapter 1*

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

My thoughts on the dating of "The New Shadow.

It's set after Aragorn's death, in the Reign of Eldarion his son. I make it 10 years in...the early datings all had it 100 years to 110 years after the fall of Barad-dur (originally Aragorn's death was the year 100 of the Fourth Age, not 120 as it is in the revised edition of LotR, and so this would be 10 years in at the most of Eldarion's reign)...a letter near his death mentions it being roughly 100 years into Eldarion's reign. Since this is just a rough guess, without "The New Shadow" nearby to check, I think that though it's clearly meant to be in Eldarion's reign, and he pushes it "roughly" more into it to compensate for the 20 year increase in Aragorn's lifespan in the revised editions of LotR, I think that in all likelyhood it has to be set around 10 years into Eldarion's reign (as the orgnal drafts were). This is because the main character, Borlas, was the younger borther of Bergil (who was 10 at the time of the War of the Ring) and is old enough to well remember the War of the Ring.
3 years pass from Saruon's fall to the beginning of the 4th Age, so let's say he 10 in the 1st year of the Fourth Age (F.A. 1), give or take a couple of years.

Aragorn died in F.A. 120, making Borlas 130 (give or take a year or two).

Now, one of the old Stewards reached 150, but under his name it says that no man of Gondor reached that age after. Obviously Aragorn exceeded it, but he was a special case - he was even allowed to choose the moment of his death. Farmir lived to 120, longer by quite a few years than any of his predecessors for a long time. The Kings of Rohan rearely reached over 90.
Borlas says that maybe he's been kept alive for so long so as the Old Evil could be recognised, but the text also says he's in good phsical health, for his age...whihc makes it sound like he's not the first man to beat 150 (except Aragorn) for hundreds of years. Indeed he's not the only one left who remembers the War, though there are only a few who do.
10 years into Eldarion, roughly, is the timing of the original drafts. This would be F.A. 130, roughly. It would also allow for enough time for "lesss are now afraid" - the emboldended spirit of evil since "the Great King's death."
This makes Borlas 140, give or take a couple of years. Anymore is much too much a lifespan, and we can't really make him younger. And if your main character's died of old age, you can't have a story.

[Finwe]

I yield, I yield, it isn't weak.


In a literary sense, wouldn't a barely-started story be "weaker" than a completed, extremely popular work?


The recurring theme in Tolkien's mythos is that of evil rising again, after it is thought to be conquered. After Morgoth's defeat, Sauron arose in Middle-earth. After Sauron's defeat, he arose again. Now, after Sauron's ultimate defeat, evil rises again. Anyone see a pattern?

[drigel]

Perhaps JRRT did want to relay the sense that you dont need a corrupt Maia to have a new shadow arise. I always thought he was relaying the feeling he was having about how quickly people forgot WWI in the 30's..?..?

[Gorwingel]

Ooohhh... I have to read that. Too bad he didn't finish it, because it does sound like an extremely interesting story.

I think Tolkien included the evil rising/evil subsiding pattern because that is just something that happens in our world. We seem to have times of peace, then we go into war, peace comes again and then war comes again. And this story is of course most likely there to teach a lesson... most likely a lesson about how people should apprciate the times of peace and keep away from the dark side.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:18 PM January 02, 2004: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

[Sharkû]

Tolkien said The New Shadow would be merely a 'thriller' [as opposed to a _faery_/mythological story] and therefore not worth writing.
Christopher Tolkien said that thriller or not, its abandoment was lamentable, since it would have made a most remarkable thriller. I'm inclined to agree. I guess that the unfinished and perpetually developing state of the legends of the first two Ages, which Tolkien vastly preferred, demanded a higher priority as well.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:03 AM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

The initial discord of Melkor in the Ainulindale goes on even when he is in out of the picture. Of course it is a reoccuring theme, but all stems from the same beginnings and carries throughout all the history of Arda, even into the 7th Age. I think the vehicle of that evil is less important than the fact that is persists, even though it is sad that it should spring up in Gondor so soon. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

Times like this you wish Tolkien was an immortal Elf, and locked in a tower in Minas Tirith to write everything hhe thinks of. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[thephantomcredits]

It seems to me that this work would have been quite a letdown in tension from the end of the LOTR. What would be a symetrical way to begin discussing the future of middle earth would be a reappearence of Morgoth from the Void. In what way this escape could have been achieved I'm not sure.

[Finwe]

It would also reinforce the theme of "Morgoth's Ring" (the HoME book of the same title gives a LOT of information on the subject). In short, it says that Arda itself is Morgoth's "Ring," and he will only be completely destroyed when it is destroyed. While it exists, his evil still exists, and forever taints it. Thus, Arda is commonly referred to Arda Hastaina ("Arda Marred"). This is yet another sign of the taint that his evil left behind.