Ruling Chicks in GB and ME

[Manardariel]

Has anyone but me noticed that there actually are some paralells between Galadriel and Elisabeth I?? They both had a very exting youth, both greatly admired their father, both were rulers and are often assosoiated with a rebellion.
Two strong female characters, one from Middle Earth, one from Tudor England- your thoughts?

[Rumil]

Erm, I suppose they were both ambitious, wanting to rule their own kingdom. Also both involved in kinslaying (depending which 'version' of Galadriel's early history you accept). LizI never married though and I have problems seeing Galadriel as a redhead.

However, to qoute from Blackadder II -

' I may have the body and limbs of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart of a King and the stomach of a concrete elephant'

(Slightly abridged from Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth's speech to her troops at Tilbury, upon the threatened invasion of the Spanish.)


[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[the witch king]

Tell you the truth I cant realy see anything more than them both being strong queens.

[doug*platypus]

Strange, Rumil, Blackadder was also the first thing I thought of when Elizabeth I was mentioned! TV is such a great place to learn history! Imagine if Galadriel had turned up all pouty like Miranda Richardson and started playing mean tricks on Frodo.

I don't know anything much about Elizabeth I, but she was supposed to be one tough gal, wasn't she? Perhaps Galadriel is in some way modelled on her, but if so that doesn't say much for JRRT's top female character. Tolkien might subconsciously be saying, that a woman can make a good ruler, BUT only if she has strong, masculine traits.

Here in New Zealand our own Prime Minister, Helen Clark, is in many peoples' opinions one of the best leaders we have ever had. Mainly due to her toughness and resilience. Whenever she and her husband are seen on TV, it's pretty obvious who wears the pants, as well.

I've never really considered it a possibility until now, but I think it would be a great shame if we admired Galadriel and Éowyn mainly when they engage in what in Middle Earth are male activities - ruling and warfare.

[Bill Ferny]

Perhaps Galadriel is in some way modelled on her…

The likelihood that Tolkien modeled Galadriel on Queen Elizabeth I is about as equal to the likelihood of Tolkien using the word “chick” to refer to a woman.

[Bêthberry]

Hmmm. Hmmm. Parallels.

All of us as readers bring to texts our own unique reading history, our own knowledge of the world. This is what makes reading an infinitely fertile experience when it is shared.

However, one of the challenges of reading involves understanding how this relationship influences what we read--and what the influence of this precursor knowledge is on the text. The point is not so much simply to discover an antecedent parallel for the text, but to explain how this antecedent/parallel might help us understand the text.

So, when we see 'parallels' we can ask ourselves two things.

First, is there any evidence in the author's writings (letters, essays, the text explicitly itself) which sustains the parallel?

And second, how can we make sense of the parallel? How does it assist us in understanding the text? And how does it operate to create meaning in the text?

In the case of parallels with other mythological texts, with Old English literature, with philology, we can say that the parallels help us understand the nature of Tolkien's story, why it does what it does and why it says what it says, particularly since the 'points of intercession' (the similarities) are so prominent, extensive, and pregnant with new possibilities for understanding Tolkien's work. There is also extensive evidence in Tolkien's writings to suggest that these parallels are significant parts of the entire way in which, say, LOTR works together.

Is there any evidence that Tolkien intended to portray Elizabeth as Galadriel? No, not in his letters that I can recall and certainly not in his very strong rejections of the possibility that he consciously wrote using historical parallels. Authorial intention is not, of course, the sole arbitrator of interpretation, but it remains an important starting place for cautionary warnings about interpreting texts.

With all due respect, I am not sure we can make a similar claim for this kind of parallel with Elizabeth I's life. Does it provide us with any greater way of understanding or knowing Galadriel? I don't think so.

First, she is already a formidable leader and an enigmatic character who escapes our efforts to box her into a tidy interpretation. We don't need to know anything about Elizabeth to appreciate the Lady of Lorien as a leader.

Perhaps the other crucial quality about Galadriel is her relationship with Gimli. Like Sam's relationship with Frodo, it provides another example of the profound importance of human interconnectedness in LOTR, of how human relations are significant and central to the creation of human communities. It is Galadriel's and Gimli's relationship which breaks through to a new understanding between elves and dwarves; without this, Gimli and Legolas might not have come to their friendship.

I fail to see how any parallel with Good Queen Bess extends this. Mighty as Elizabeth was, none of her icons or symbols speak to this matter of feeling connection between people. In fact, Elizabeth might even be taken as a symbol which denies the heart in the human community--and it would be a long, arcane, post-modernist exploration of what is absent to make this a meaningful possibility and I doubt that is what is meant by suggesting the parallel initially.

My apologies for rambling on, but I think one of the topics which could be explored fruitfully on the Downs is just what is involved in reading and making associations between Tolkien's texts and other texts.

Humbly submitted,
Bethberry

[Rumil]

Mmmmmmm, Miranda Richardson, Aaaaaah,

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[Anardil]

I don't suppose this really counts, but both were played by actress Cate Blanchett [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[obloquy]

Also both involved in kinslaying (depending which 'version' of Galadriel's early history you accept).

If I recall correctly, Galadriel was guiltless with regard to the Kinslaying in all versions of her history, along with the rest of Finarfin's house.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Elizabeth, unlike her father, used the headsman's axe with reluctance and after considerable provocation. The relatives she killed deserved their fate as all three, (the Duke of Norfolk, Mary Queen of Scots and the Earl of Essex) were guilty of conspiring against Elizabeth's life and crown - and all three were given second, even third chances to change their ways before she finally resorted to the ultimate sanction.

None of this is in any way comparable to the Kinslaying of Aqualond.

Galadriel doesn't resemble Elizabeth I in any way but Queen Telperien of Numenor, (the second ruling queen) does seem to have been based on 'Gloriana' as she too is a virgin queen.

[Tinuviel87]

I'm gonna have to go with the only similarity between the two is the Cate Blanchett has played both of them, Esp. since Tolkien generally tried to steer clear of connections like this, i.e. War of the Ring vs. WWII...maybe I'm wrong...it's been known to happen once or twice every age... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]