Grumbling in the Fandom - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Arathiriel · 08-03-2003, 01:03 PM

You know I was just listening to the cast commentary on the FOTR EV today and I reached this part where John Rhys-Davies was talking about how gracious (paraphrasing here) the fans had been not to gripe about something that was left out of the movies from the books - and sadly I thought he wouldn't be saying such if he could read some of the grumbling I had read online! Seriously, guys, I don't mean to come down on you but I have seen so much grumbling on the LOTR boards/lists lately that I am beginning to think that the fans hate the movies instead of loving! Now with that said, yes, I will admit there are at least two plot changes that annoys the living heck (Galadriel's gift to Sam in FOTR EV; Faramir in TTT) out of me but I look at the movies this way - when I watch them I try to enjoy them for what they are but also at the same time I try not to get to over critical of some of the character/plot changes and as a result I LOVE the movies almost as much as I love the books! Anyway I mean no offense by this post and please know I am not trying to come down on anyone - just trying to point out something about the fandom that has been bugging me lately....

Nils · 08-03-2003, 01:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Seriously, guys, I don't mean to come down on you but I have seen so much grumbling on the LOTR boards/lists lately that I am beginning to think that the fans hate the movies instead of loving! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why are Tolkien fans supposed to love PJ's version of Middle-earth?

Lord of Angmar · 08-03-2003, 01:34 PM

I would say that overall, most people here love the movies, or at least enjoy them. I am very fond of the movies, yet I have done some grumbling of my own; particularly about the changes to Faramir, which I did not like in the least bit. All in all, the movies are an excellent endeavour, if nothing more than one artist's interpretation of Middle Earth. I see it as no different than any of the drawings put forth by Tolkien artists, or for that matter any artist; you either feel a connection with the art or you don't. If you don't like the movies, at least there's always the books to fall back on. And I should think that most people here are pretty big fans of those.....

Meela · 08-03-2003, 01:55 PM

I adore the movies, and I think that PJ did a wonderful job interpreting the books. There are some things you just have to change for a cinematic version. Interpreting the books to the letter would produce a dull, lengthy film which sends the majority of the audience to sleep, and I would probably be snoring alongside them.There is absolutely nothing wrong with editing a few details. I mean, it's better than turning Elrond into the Ringbearer and Pippin into the Dark Lord, right? There could be worse changes made than the ones PJ did.

Arwen Eruantale · 08-03-2003, 01:56 PM

Alright, Arathiriel! I must say I completely agree with you and had just been considering putting up a post somewhere with these exact concerns. Thanks.

Lush · 08-03-2003, 03:14 PM

Oh dear. Movie fans have opinions. What is the world coming to?(the words "hell" and "handbasket" come to mind)Though then again, the so-called opinions that amount to statements akin to: "I'M GONNA RIP OUT PJ'S ENTRAILS AND FEED THEM TO MY MOTHER-IN-LAW!" do get a bit tiresome after the thousandth time or so.

Arathiriel · 08-03-2003, 04:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why are Tolkien fans supposed to love PJ's version of Middle-earth?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because maybe had anyone else made them, say like Disney, the movies might would have sucked! BIG TIME!!!We were very fortunate that PJ and company made it because the majority of people who worked on the movies are (or became) fans of LOTR and so the movies are a labor of love to them where they make every effort to respect, be true to the spirit of the books!*whew*That was a mouthful!!! [ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]

Arwen Eruantale · 08-03-2003, 06:37 PM

Touche!Yet another thought taken directly from my somewhat disorganised mind. I began quivering with fear the other day at the thought that Mr. Jackson's team was one of several who might have attempted the adaptation of this magnificent trilogy. Thank God for Pete! He is truely amazing to have cared enough to stay as true to the feel as he did with this project. We're talking, for every changed scene or tiny little additive, there is an entire string of word-for-word lines straight from the pages of the books! For some reason, that in itself is enough to give me great respect for him.

Nils · 08-03-2003, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Because maybe had anyone else made them, say like Disney, the movies might would have sucked! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Fellowship of the Ring was OK (saw it a couple of times in the theater). The Two Towers did suck (saw it once in the theater, wanted to literally puke), so I don't follow what you are saying.***Puts on asbestos fire suit to protect from barage of flames I'm about to receive from 'Fandom'***[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

Sauron 666 · 08-04-2003, 05:43 AM

If someone produces something that is praiseworthy then I will praise it. I will not praise something because i am supposed to or because i'm obligated to some sort of gratitude. Overall I was happy with FOTR, i can't say the same for TTT. I understand that literature and movies are two completely different mediums, the former is one of the greatest art forms, the latter is unfortunately most of the time nothing but generic 'entertainement' mass produced for the sheeplike masses. I know the average literature reader is more intelligent than the average moviegoer, I just wish that someone could produce intelligent, mind blowing movies like Stanley Kubrick had done that actually make you think of things other than 'whoa cool effect'. I realize that making a movie out of LOTR word for word is unpractical and that some changes are necessary. However i expect these changes to make sense. Vist the encyclopedia of Arda and their movie guide for TTT and you'll see what the problems are with the changes made.

Lush · 08-04-2003, 09:28 AM

Kubrick, eh? Full Mithril Jacket?

Diamond18 · 08-04-2003, 10:09 AM

Fact of Life: Humans love to grumble. Complaining actually makes us feel good!We all grumble about different things (for instance, grumbling about other people grumbling). Personally, my favorite things to grumble about are: my job, writer's block, the slowness of my internet connection, computer problems, car problems, the dog, and the fact that my alarm doesn't always go off when I set it. I hate to be told not to grumble about these things (you could say that I grumble about being told not to grumble. )So, I've stopped bothering to complain or "correct" people who grumble about things I like. Because art forms such as literature, movies, music, clothing/hair styles, etc. are all subjective and no one has to like everything. I do get annoyed when people speak as though they hold the ultimate truth as to what makes a good or bad movie/book/song, and that anyone who disagrees is stupid or brainwashed. There's no need to get ugly and make death threats against people who create things you don't like, even if it's an adaptation of something you like. And it's just plain childish to attack or degrade people who happen to like or tolerate what you don't like. But I see no reason why one can't at least complain about it in a civil fashion, especially amongst other people who will complain about it with you (or at least nod and say "mm-hm" ). It's releasing. I'd still be mad about Faramir if I hadn't been able to complain about it on this forum.Personally, I enjoy many popular movies today and think that Stanley Kubrick is synonymous with "mind numbing form of torture". But that doesn't mean I expect everyone to agree with my tastes, or am petitioning for the destruction of Kubrick's movies.Grumble and let grumble, I always say...

Lyta_Underhill · 08-04-2003, 10:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Kubrick, eh? Full Mithril Jacket?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How about "A Clockwork Elf" ? (Egad! That puts me in mind of my exceedingly silly Exploding Elf, Fëanor!) This clockwork elf will explode in 5...4...3...2...oh, never mind! Hmmmm, come to think of it, how would "A Clockwork Orange" do with Fëanor and his droogs (sons?) wreaking havoc in Alqualondë and getting caught and sentenced to Life in Middle Earth, only to find out it was a Liberal scheme...etc etc. OK, bad analogy! I realize this has nothing to do with grumbling, but more a takeoff on Kubrick and my favorite Exploding Elf! Forgive me, and commence to grumbling! Cheers, LytaP.S. You should have seen Tolkien grumbling in his Letters about a proposed script to LOTR in the 1950's! Now THAT was some grumbling!

08-03-2003, 01:03 PM	#1
Arathiriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Blessed Realm Posts: 284	Grumbling in the Fandom You know I was just listening to the cast commentary on the FOTR EV today and I reached this part where John Rhys-Davies was talking about how gracious (paraphrasing here) the fans had been not to gripe about something that was left out of the movies from the books - and sadly I thought he wouldn't be saying such if he could read some of the grumbling I had read online!<BR> <BR>Seriously, guys, I don't mean to come down on you but I have seen so much grumbling on the LOTR boards/lists lately that I am beginning to think that the fans hate the movies instead of loving! Now with that said, yes, I will admit there are at least two plot changes that annoys the living heck (Galadriel's gift to Sam in FOTR EV; Faramir in TTT) out of me but I look at the movies this way - when I watch them I try to enjoy them for what they are but also at the same time I try not to get to over critical of some of the character/plot changes and as a result I LOVE the movies almost as much as I love the books!<BR> <BR>Anyway I mean no offense by this post and please know I am not trying to come down on anyone - just trying to point out something about the fandom that has been bugging me lately.... __________________ 'I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.' - Samwise Gamgee

08-03-2003, 01:23 PM	#2
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Seriously, guys, I don't mean to come down on you but I have seen so much grumbling on the LOTR boards/lists lately that I am beginning to think that the fans hate the movies instead of loving! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why are Tolkien fans supposed to love PJ's version of Middle-earth? __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-03-2003, 01:34 PM	#3
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I would say that overall, <I>most</I> people here love the movies, or at least enjoy them. I am very fond of the movies, yet I have done some grumbling of my own; particularly about the changes to Faramir, which I did not like in the least bit. All in all, the movies are an excellent endeavour, if nothing more than one artist's interpretation of Middle Earth. I see it as no different than any of the drawings put forth by Tolkien artists, or for that matter any artist; you either feel a connection with the art or you don't. If you don't like the movies, at least there's always the books to fall back on. And I should think that most people here are pretty big fans of those..... __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-03-2003, 01:55 PM	#4
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	I adore the movies, and I think that PJ did a wonderful job interpreting the books. There are some things you just have to change for a cinematic version. Interpreting the books to the letter would produce a dull, lengthy film which sends the majority of the audience to sleep, and I would probably be snoring alongside them.There is absolutely nothing wrong with editing a few details. I mean, it's better than turning Elrond into the Ringbearer and Pippin into the Dark Lord, right? There could be worse changes made than the ones PJ did. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard. Last edited by Meela; 11-27-2004 at 07:10 AM.

08-03-2003, 01:56 PM	#5
Arwen Eruantale Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: My Field of Paper Flowers Posts: 282	Alright, Arathiriel! I must say I completely agree with you and had just been considering putting up a post somewhere with these exact concerns. Thanks. __________________ And he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile... Will you pay attention?

08-03-2003, 03:14 PM	#6
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Oh dear. Movie fans have opinions. What is the world coming to?<P>(the words "hell" and "handbasket" come to mind)<P>Though then again, the so-called opinions that amount to statements akin to: "I'M GONNA RIP OUT PJ'S ENTRAILS AND FEED THEM TO MY MOTHER-IN-LAW!" do get a bit tiresome after the thousandth time or so. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

08-03-2003, 04:01 PM	#7
Arathiriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Blessed Realm Posts: 284	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why are Tolkien fans supposed to love PJ's version of Middle-earth?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because maybe had anyone else made them, say like Disney, the movies might would have <B>sucked</B>! <P>BIG TIME!!!<P>We were very fortunate that PJ and company made it because the majority of people who worked on the movies are (or became) fans of LOTR and so the movies are a labor of love to them where they make every effort to respect, be true to the spirit of the books!<P><I>whew</I><P>That was a <B>mouthful</B>!!! <p>[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Arathiriel ] __________________ 'I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.' - Samwise Gamgee

08-03-2003, 06:37 PM	#8
Arwen Eruantale Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: My Field of Paper Flowers Posts: 282	<I>Touche!</I><P>Yet another thought taken directly from my somewhat disorganised mind. <P>I began quivering with fear the other day at the thought that Mr. Jackson's team was one of several who might have attempted the adaptation of this magnificent trilogy. Thank God for Pete! <BR>He is truely amazing to have cared enough to stay as true to the feel as he did with this project. We're talking, for every changed scene or tiny little additive, there is an entire string of word-for-word lines straight from the pages of the books! For some reason, that in itself is enough to give me great respect for him. __________________ And he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile... Will you pay attention?

08-03-2003, 06:59 PM	#9
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Because maybe had anyone else made them, say like Disney, the movies might would have sucked! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Fellowship of the Ring was OK (saw it a couple of times in the theater). The Two Towers did suck (saw it once in the theater, wanted to literally puke), so I don't follow what you are saying.<P>*Puts on asbestos fire suit to protect from barage of flames I'm about to receive from 'Fandom'*<p>[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ] __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-04-2003, 05:43 AM	#10
Sauron 666 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 59	If someone produces something that is praiseworthy then I will praise it. I will not praise something because i am supposed to or because i'm obligated to some sort of gratitude. Overall I was happy with FOTR, i can't say the same for TTT. I understand that literature and movies are two completely different mediums, the former is one of the greatest art forms, the latter is unfortunately most of the time nothing but generic 'entertainement' mass produced for the sheeplike masses. I know the average literature reader is more intelligent than the average moviegoer, I just wish that someone could produce intelligent, mind blowing movies like Stanley Kubrick had done that actually make you think of things other than 'whoa cool effect'. I realize that making a movie out of LOTR word for word is unpractical and that some changes are necessary. However i expect these changes to make sense. Vist the encyclopedia of Arda and their movie guide for TTT and you'll see what the problems are with the changes made. __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk Ash Nazg Gimbatul Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk Arg Burzum-Ishi Krimpatul

08-04-2003, 09:28 AM	#11
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Kubrick, eh? Full Mithril Jacket?<P> __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

08-04-2003, 10:09 AM	#12
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Fact of Life: Humans love to grumble. Complaining actually makes us feel good!<P>We all grumble about different things (for instance, grumbling about other people grumbling). Personally, my favorite things to grumble about are: my job, writer's block, the slowness of my internet connection, computer problems, car problems, the dog, and the fact that my alarm doesn't always go off when I set it. I hate to be told not to grumble about these things (you could say that I grumble about being told not to grumble. )<P>So, I've stopped bothering to complain or "correct" people who grumble about things I like. Because art forms such as literature, movies, music, clothing/hair styles, etc. are all subjective and no one has to like everything. I do get annoyed when people speak as though they hold the ultimate truth as to what makes a good or bad movie/book/song, and that anyone who disagrees is stupid or brainwashed. There's no need to get ugly and make death threats against people who create things you don't like, even if it's an adaptation of something you like. And it's just plain childish to attack or degrade people who happen to like or tolerate what you don't like. But I see no reason why one can't at least complain about it in a civil fashion, especially amongst other people who will complain about it with you (or at least nod and say "mm-hm" ). It's releasing. I'd still be mad about Faramir if I hadn't been able to complain about it on this forum.<P>Personally, I enjoy many popular movies today and think that Stanley Kubrick is synonymous with "mind numbing form of torture". But that doesn't mean I expect everyone to agree with my tastes, or am petitioning for the destruction of Kubrick's movies.<P>Grumble and let grumble, I always say... __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

08-04-2003, 10:50 PM	#13
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Kubrick, eh? Full Mithril Jacket?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How about "A Clockwork Elf" ? (Egad! That puts me in mind of my exceedingly silly Exploding Elf, Fëanor!) This clockwork elf will explode in 5...4...3...2...oh, never mind! <P>Hmmmm, come to think of it, how would "A Clockwork Orange" do with Fëanor and his droogs (sons?) wreaking havoc in Alqualondë and getting caught and sentenced to Life in Middle Earth, only to find out it was a Liberal scheme...etc etc. OK, bad analogy! I realize this has nothing to do with grumbling, but more a takeoff on Kubrick and my favorite Exploding Elf! Forgive me, and commence to grumbling! <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta<P>P.S. You should have seen Tolkien grumbling in his Letters about a proposed script to LOTR in the 1950's! Now THAT was some grumbling! __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

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