A PJ inconsistency?

I just paid attention to this a couple weeks ago after watching FOTR for the umpteen-millionth time (which is a lot, btw) and noticed something I had managed to miss before. At the gate of Moria, the line about the elvish word for friend was taken from Merry as it was in the book, and given to Frodo. This finally clicked with me that it should not be. Frodo is educated, and understands Elvish quite well. He understands Aragorn singing about Beren and Luthien, in the book he speaks with the woodelves as he and Sam are on the road, when he looks at the ring, he doesnt understand, because it is not an elvish language that he knows. Though in Lothlorien some of the dialect confused him, he still understood most of it. Surely, with his education, he would have known the Elvish word for something as common and often used as "friend". Anyone agree?

[The Only Real Estel]

Yes but there are many different forms of Elvish, & they may have 'made' the password in a higher form of Elvish, perhaps? Frodo wouldn't have known that, but that's just my explaination of it.

[Meneltarmacil]

Welcome to the Downs, Anolduin! Enjoy being dead! <P>All of your examples seem to be drawn from the book. Could you give an example from the movie? Thanks.

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He understands Aragorn singing about Beren and Luthien <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is also true in the extended edition DVD of the Fellowship of the Ring, I believe, so there is your answer, Meneltarmacil, about evidence from the movie.

[Meneltarmacil]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>there are many different forms of Elvish, & they may have 'made' the password in a higher form of Elvish<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He might have known either Sindarin or Quenya but probably not both.

[The Only Real Estel]

Precisely my point. I'm saying he probably didn't even know the word for friend, I'm sure the Elves used more Quenya & Sindarin back in 'the good old days'. He probably didn't even know either of those forms for that matter, all though I'm not sure if Tolkien is ever very specific about the 'type(s?)' of Elvish Frodo knew.

In response to the fact that there are different forms of Elvish, this is true, though at the point in time when the door was made (as well as after), Sindarin was the common Elvish speech, not Quenya. And since the doors were carved in friendly times for all to read, chances are that it was written in Sindarin as well, for other races were meant to read the door, and most knew Sindarin. Frodo, however, leads us to believe that he knows different forms of Elvish, for when he looks at the inscription on the ring, he says:<BR> "It's some form of Elvish. I can't read it." <BR>this would imply that most forms he could, though this one is foreign to him. Therefore, I believe that Frodo would in fact know the elvish word for "friend", whether it be Sindarin or Quenya.

[StarJewel]

He probably did know Quenya, from all the books Bilbo had lying around. And I know the feeling, my mom is a librarian . Just something strange that popped into my head: If Bilbo was in Mirkwood, wouldnt it make sense that Frodo would at least know some Sindarin? Not the whole langauge, but maybe common words like "friend"? And now I'm seeing two computer screens, so i'm going to bed

[Iarwain]

Has anyone considered that, perhaps, Frodo could not read the specific mode or alphabet that the text was set in? Perhaps he did know Quenya, Sindarin, etc., but that doesn't mean that his reading skills extended beyond the Cirth and into the Feanorian Tengwar. We must recognise that there are more aspects to script than mere language. In fact, one could successfully write volumes of sensible English text in Greek, Sanskrit, Russian, etc. characters with little to no difficulty. The form of the words and grammar would not change at all. Also, the transfer of riddle solving capability has nothing to do with the ability to understand language, and even if it did, this would be more of a "Tollers Inconsistency" and belong in the Books forum. We must remember that Gandalf (in both book and movie) reads the text aloud to the Fellowship, setting aside any need for language skills. <P><BR>Iarwain

[Kiah]

I was thinking that maybe the Elvish language used on the doors to Moria might have been the language of the Noldorin Elves.. Didn't they have their own language other than Sindarin and Quenya? I could be wrong but it's a thought.

yes, Gandalf did read the inscription, but when Frodo questions it, he also reads it. He is shown looking up at the door and reading, "speak friend, and enter." it is after he reads this that he looks at Gandalf and asks. Tolkien did not err in this, he had someone ask who did not know the language (Merry). Also, the two forms of Elvish (quenya and sindarin) evolved when some of the elves moved to middle earth, and some remained in valinor. those that moved slowly altered their speech, which then became sindarin. when the others followed hundreds of years later, the two had changed in time, to be nearly two separate languages, though both had the same root language. Also, in regards to iarwin's comment about frodo possibly not knowing the tenwar script, he tried to read it on the ring, remember? But because it was the Black speech, he didn't know it, but if he didn't know the script, he wouldn't have even tried to read it.

[Iarwain]

Allow me to quote Frodo. "I cannot read the fiery letters". He did not say "I cannot read the foul tounge" or "I cannot read the funky language". He specifically said "letters", meaning that he could not understand the bits of the alphabet displayed on the ring. Also, we can see that there were various forms of the tengwar, and that those displayed on the ring were a particularly archaic form. When Gandalf enters Hobbiton in Ch1 of the FotR, the children specifically notice the letter 'g' marked on all of the fireworks in his cart "g for grand" they say, but the g displayed in the text as the mark on the fireworks is not the tengwar g as shown in the ring inscription.<P>Iarwain

the inscriptions on the ring were tengwar adapted to the black speech. And true, the children recognized the character on the fireworks, but Frodo is much more educated than them. It is stated that he was the most learned of all the hobbits aside, perhaps from Bilbo. But none of that is even relevant to whether or not Frodo would know how to say "friend" in Elvish. He listened and understood the songs that the elves in Rivendell sang. He understood most of what was said in Lothlorien. He understood the balad of Beren and Luthien. Bottom line, Frodo knew elvish. And since the inscription above the door was in Elvish and read, "pedo mellon a mino", which translates, "Speak friend and enter", it doesn't make any sense that Frodo read it, and then didn't know what "friend" is. Merry wouldn't know the translation without being told, but Frodo himself translated as he re-read the inscription, commenting on it being a riddle. It wasn't written in the common tongue, so he translated from Elvish as he read, so he just finished reading "mellon" and saying "friend".

[Novlamothien]

"Mellon" is Sindarin.<P> I think what Anolduin wanted to know weather or not Frodo would have known the Elvish word for friend without reading the script. Most of us do. <P> Personally, I think Frodo would have known that Mellon was Elvish for friend, and PJ should have given the line to someone else, like Merry.<P>Sorry, even I'm confused now.<BR> <p>[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Novlamothien ]

Yes, Novlamothian, that is exactly my point, and even emphasises what I stated, though I hadn't even seen that as proof until you pointed it out. The inscription on the door is, in fact, Sindarin, the grey-elvish language, which was the commonly used elvish tongue. This disputes any idea that it was some "other" form of elvish foreign to Frodo. A minor oops on PJ's part, just not thinking through it thoroughly enough before changing who gives the line. Another case of trying to change something, and finding out that Tolkien had it right to begin with, but this one they didn't catch. oh well.

[Iarwain]

You ask if he would have "needed" to know. No, he would not. As previously stated, Gandalf read the "riddle" to the company. Frodo was staring (perhaps blankly) at the text as he repeated it to himself. Ultimately, the question is whether or not you want it to be a mistake. It can be explained, because we must realize that Jackson's "artistic vision" takes place in a wholly different universe than the one Tolkien created. This allows space for Frodo to be the corny, fake, blubbering idiot that we see in the films, and it could easily deprive him of any knowledge that he ought to have (it has already given him knowledge that he shouldn't have at all). So, do you want it to be a PJ inconsistency, or a PJ "interpretation"? That is the question.<P>Iarwain

[Roccotari Eldandil]

Sorry if this post is sort of scatterbrained, my organization skills aren't working today...<BR>Maybe Frodo couldn't read the Mode of Beleriand used on the Moria-gate. For all who don't know, the MoB uses normal tengwar for vowels also; the other modes use marks (tehtar) placed above the tengwar. BUT: Frodo WOULD know tengwar--it was used to write Westron too; the title page inscription is in the Westron mode! But sometimes the letters are used for different sounds in different languages. Thus, I can read the mode used for Quenya, but Sindarin uses some letters differently and I have a tough time reading those; see Appendix E about the differences. The letter on Gandalf's cart and the letter on the Ring have the same value, but they're in different languages. I think that Frodo knew the characters but didn't know what they were used <I>for</I>. <P>Frodo probably didn't know that much of either Quenya or Sindarin--just a few bits. Remember Bilbo's quote(paraphrased): "I thought you at least knew enough Elvish to figure out Dûn-adan..." He probably knew "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" as a phrase, and maybe a few other bits of both languages. He couldn't translate "A Elbereth" when he heard Gildor&co singing it. The song of Beren and Lúthien was sung in Westron(=English), not Sindarin, by Aragorn--well, in the book it was. <P>Anolduin:I really hate to be nitpicky, but I have to say this in response to your post on the ancestry of Elvish languages: On the march to Valinor, all the Elves spoke more or less the same primitive form of Elvish. Sindarin was the primitive tongue as it evolved in Middle-earth; it was used by those Elves that <I>never went to Aman.</I> Quenya was the primitive language as it developed in Valinor. It was brought back by the Exiles.<P>And, just for the record: Dominic Monaghan, who plays Merry, fought hard to keep that line as Merry's. Unfortunately, he lost; so here we are today.<p>[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Roccotari Eldandil ]

[Nils]

As far as the title of this thread goes, I don't believe this would be considered a "PJ inconsistency". True, this is one of the places where PJ took liberties with the story, but as I see it, it is one of his very minor liberties.

[arianrod]

One thing I noticed in FotR was how much PJ loved his allusions to The Hobbit. I think his giving Frodo the lines of "It's a riddle.", leading to "What's the Elvish word for 'friend'?" was another way of reminding people of the preceding book. <P>In The Hobbit, Bilbo Baggins wins a riddle compitition with Gollum. Now here's the heir to his estate, another Baggins, on a journey of his own. We know that Hobbits love their riddles, but seeing as Frodo's adoptive uncle was none other than the riddle champ, that would make Frodo the most likely of the hobbits to see the play on words. At least that's how it would seem to PJ. <P>Now, I also think that Frodo could have easily known "Mellon" on his own without asking the wizard, but if he just stepped out in front of the doors and started speaking Elvish to make the them open, half of the audience (those poor fools who haven't read the books) won't know what's going on and wonder why the password is something as riddiculous as "Melon". Not that they can judge, anyway, seeing as the most internationally accepted password, "Open Sesame", is a spice.<P>...did any of that make any sense? Oy vey... shouldn't try to post late at night...

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Arianrod, you make perfect sense.

[Iarwain]

Bloody PJ, he annoys me. Oh well, it can't be helped. <P>Iarwain

[arianrod]

Thank you, Tinuviel, it's always nice to know I'm getting through to people. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Bloody PJ, he annoys me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree, Iarwain, that PJ has done things to make me a <I>tad</I> upset (like cutting the Scouring of the Shire ), but I think overall he's done a brillant job. I don't think I'd trust the story and challenge of LotR to any other director. I think we're very fortunate that he took on the project.