Has ne one realized.... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kirsanne_Tolebrass · 01-02-2003, 09:26 PM

...that in the Two Towers, they kind of stopped the movie in the middle of the book? I'm not complaining, but this means they are going to have to make the last movie really long. Y'all do realize that, right or am I just going crazy?

Orual · 01-02-2003, 09:44 PM

Yeah, it was at least a good 200 pages shy of "Frodo was alive, but taken by the Enemy." But I did hear that Return of the King would be three and a half hours long...imagine how long the Extended version will be! But either way they'll have to do some compressing...though I guess that there's room to compress, and it is rumoured that there'll be no Scouring, so that's time saved. Well, I know I'm looking foward to it!~*~Orual~*~

Diamond18 · 01-02-2003, 09:53 PM

Peter Jackson says: "It will be as long as it needs to be." I hope he holds to that...

Faye Took · 01-03-2003, 12:37 AM

Wow. The extended version for both TT and RotK will be long! I can't wait. I really wish PJ would have kept Scouring of the Shire because I really wanted to see the Hobbits in action! I wonder how he is going to kill Saruman.

pherostien · 01-03-2003, 01:03 AM

I found a picture about 3 months ago... it was sauruman with a large spike through his stomache at orthanc. But my hopes are still high. i want there to be a scouring.

Gorwingel · 01-03-2003, 01:24 AM

From what I have heard they are not going to have the Scouring of the Shire in ROTK (Peter Jackson announced that months ago), so that is probably the way that they are going to be able to fit in all the stuff that they did not put into TTT.

Faye Took · 01-03-2003, 01:35 AM

Now that you mention it, I also remeber seeing a picture of him with a spike through him! OooOoooO I wonder..

Iargwath · 01-03-2003, 01:47 AM

Would anybody be able to locate that picture (the one with saruman and the spike)? I would really like to see that. Thanks

doug*platypus · 01-03-2003, 06:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yeah, it was at least a good 200 pages shy of "Frodo was alive, but taken by the Enemy." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ooooh!! Just seeing part of it written like that makes me shudder! I love the book ending of TTT!!! Quite apart from feeling cheated at the end of movieTTT - "where's me spider?!!", I thought that PJs ending left us basically where we were after the first movie. We see lots of shots of the Ring in Frodo's hand, Frodo and Sam gaze meaningfully at each other, I vomit, they wander off into the distance. The action heroes have a big battle, have a little chat, and then they're off as well. In TTT, our action hero list has grown slightly longer, but since they don't get a chance to talk in the final scene that doesn't really matter.George Lucas, someone who has some experience making trilogies, said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the first act you introduce the characters. In the second act you put them in the worst possible situation they could be in. In the third act they get out. That's drama. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When I first heard that I thought he was simple and egotistical to say something like that. But know I recognise that he was a much better storyteller than PJ and co. I don't think you'll find a better cliff-hanger than The Choices of Master Samwise from the book. Apparently this belief isn't held by certain filmmakers.

Arien · 01-03-2003, 07:04 AM

No Scouring of the Shire? Thats just stupid..... But in the FOTR when Frodo looked into the Mirror you saw some scenes wit the hobbits and stuff.....or maybe Im just seeing things again....

LePetitChoux · 01-03-2003, 10:27 AM

That was Peter's way of incorporating that chapter into the films. No Scouring of the Shire. And where is that picture of Saruman with a spike through him?

dunedain_aragorn · 01-03-2003, 11:41 AM

I think that since when you take out the appendices the 3rd book is really short, they are trying to put more material in the return of the king. see, the appendices are sooo long. they have to fart around with faramir for so darn long! plus, they wanted a clean ending. it ending with frodo kidnapped would make people VERY angry. and helms deep is such an attention grabber, they wanted to end right after. there, thats my opinion.

Bill Ferny · 01-03-2003, 01:34 PM

Doug,I'm sorry, but George Lucas really needed to stop when he was ahead. SWII: Attack of the Clones was simply terrible, both as a movie and as a story. It was poorly directed, poorly acted, and one of the most shallow stories I've ever come into contact with. Lucas refused to allow anyone to touch the script, or even read it, prior to filming, and it shows. Please! The climatic battle of the film was between a hyperactive midget and a geriatrics patient!Sure, almost everyone in the movies is indebted to George Lucas to some degree, but Jackson apparently understood the potential of Lucas' visual breakthroughs more than Lucas did himself. The visual effects in SWII looked sterile, forced and faked.Of course, a criticism of anything Star Wars will probably earn me a few more well directed apples. You can say it’s a matter of taste, but taste can only account for so much. On this one, I tend to agree with the professional movie critics.

Nurumaiel · 01-03-2003, 01:47 PM

No apples from this direction! I entirely agree with you about Star Wars. I was very disappointed with it.I think dunedain_aragorn has a point about ROTK. The appendices are long. I just hope they save room for the Grey Havens.~Nurumaiel

eleanor_niphredil · 01-03-2003, 02:51 PM

Most of the last book is just boring war stuff. That may be okay for reading, but you have to admitt, any war longer or less interesting than helms deep is just not what audiences want these days (especialy those poor anti-tolkien people).With that left out, the third film should be...Four hours long!

pherostien · 01-03-2003, 04:31 PM

I found the pic here on the downs in July. I thought that it would happen in TTT. Dratts!!

Kirsanne_Tolebrass · 01-03-2003, 06:53 PM

dunedain_aragorn, I believe your correct, I mean, who would want the movie to end with him being kidnapped and the battle at Helms Deep is really exciting.

Rose Cotton · 01-03-2003, 07:52 PM

Remember that in the last movie PJ ended after he was supposed to. Boromir's death isn't touched on untill TTT but it still worked.I read somwhere that RotK would be centered alot around Faramir and Denethor's relationship. I personally think this is a good idea as it will most likely show us the side of Faramir we wanted to see in TTT.By the Way, here's somthing I found about RotK:The Two Towers is almost upon us, which, while inordinately exciting, means that there's another twelve months until the saga is finally concluded with Return of The King. Luckily for us, Peter Jackson has a few choice morsels to share about the final film, and share he did in The Mail on Sunday yesterday.Promising to be the most spectacular of the three films, Jackson has had to pull out all the stops for the climax, including the enhancement of the film's principal villain, the dark lord Sauron. "The Sauron in the books is sketchy at best, which makes it hard to turn him into a screen villain," says Jackson. "But imagine not really seeing Darth Vader for all three Star Wars films. You just can't do it." It's fair to say that the dark lord will have an increased presence in Jackson's adaptation, rather than being restricted to his role so far, that of a disembodied eye, but the question plaguing Jackson and his crew has been how best to represent the lord of Mordor? "You can't reduce him to being a big guy striding around in black armour, but he cannot be limited to a flaming eye, either."Sauron's henchman, the Mouth of Sauron, will also make his debut in the third film, bedecked in a large helmet that conceals all of his face except his nose and decomposing jaws. Likewise, we'll be introduced to Boromir's father, Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, played by John Noble. ""Denethor resents never being king, and Boromir inherited that bitterness," says Noble. "It's what led Boromir to try to steal the Ring in the first film. It is my job to show the humanity of the man, he is literally driven mad by grief and fear."What we can take for granted is that the action set-pieces, which have multiplied in scope from part one to part two, will reach an all-time high with the final leg of the tale. Jackson promises bigger and better battles that will make the fight for Helm's Deep look like a minor barny down the Rat & Parrot. "The battles will be the biggest you have ever seen," says Jackson of the third film. "We have a piece of software that allows us to have 200,000 computer-generated extras fight each other. You simply press a button, sit back and watch these enormous battles unfold before your eyes."The final scene of the film, which takes place across the landscape of the Grey Havens is tipped by the director to be his favourite of all three films, the high point of the story and what everything has been working towards. "To me, it's a culmination of the entire story," he says." It represents what it is to give and what it is to lose. That scene is probably the most powerful part of the entire film." Another year to wait? It is a cruel world indeed.[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ]

Nieninque · 01-03-2003, 08:18 PM

I'm totally with you, Bill. I can't believe I spent four dollars on an Attack of the Clones ticket and two hours of my time watching it *cringes* Yes, the appendixes are really long (I believe there's six of them) and take up at least one hundred pages in my edition. I wasn't angry at PJ for ending TTT that early. After all, Gollum's last line was very forboding...

Diamond18 · 01-03-2003, 10:19 PM

*Hands Bill a polished red apple*I do agree with you, good sir! I myself did enjoy SWII quite a bit, but that was only becaue I went in expecting cheesey action and humor, and nothing more, and therefore had not much to be disappointed by. But I have not run out to buy the DVD and I'm not waiting for ep.III in tortured anticipation. I also think that Return of the Jedi could have been so much better than it was.Doug, let me re-quote your GL quote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the first act you introduce the characters. In the second act you put them in the worst possible situation they could be in. In the third act they get out. That's drama.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And then your remark: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When I first heard that I thought he was simple and egotistical to say something like that. But know I recognise that he was a much better storyteller than PJ and co. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really think that you should stick with your initial opinion. Lucas does really oversimplify matters. It would be terrible indeed if PJ and Co. were to reduce RotK to a simple "they get out".The ending of TTT the book was pure genius, but I don't fault the movie for not ending there. Simply because Helm's Deep was so huge that everyone was ready for it to be over after that climax was "maxed". I'm not sure that after three hours of a movie people are ready for the other hour it would take to pass by Minas Morgul, climb the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, pass through Shelob's Lair, fight Gollum and Shelob, have an extremely emotional scene where Sam must agonize over leaving Frodo for dead and continuing the Quest, then learn that no! Frodo isn't dead after all!I think these scenes really do need another movie to do them justice. To tack it onto the end of Helm's Deep would be trying to do too much, I think. Tolkien had the luxury of isolating the two narratives; that wouldn't have worked in a movie. Especially since PJ wouldn't want us to forget about the other half of the Fellowship, and so he'd have to include a good deal of RotK. That would make the movie five hours. It would make a great DVD, but I probably would have killed the popcorn munching chatterboxes behind me by hour four.I want to return to the point about RotK deserving more than George Lucas's simple formula. It's true that Frodo and co. exited the screen rather peacefully and hopefully, but PJ did have the brains to hint at the horror that is to come. Audiences will be waiting all year to see "her", whether they're Tolkien fans or not.Tolkien saved the best for last when it came to the other half of the Fellowship, what with the Pelennor Fields and Denethor's madness and all. He didn't look at RotK as a simple resolution, he looked at it as the last hurrah, the knock down, all out battle for the world; a wonderful, poetic, heartbreaking...eh...what I mean to say is, it won't hurt to have the stellar drama of the Choices of Master Samwise juxtaposed with the lead up to the Pelennor, as it seems that all hope is lost....I did not intend for this post to be this long. Honest! I just find so much to pick on with TTT, that I might as well defend what I think is a good move on PJ's part. You don't mind if I take a bite from that apple, do ya Bill? [ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

doug*platypus · 01-03-2003, 11:28 PM

Bill me old cobber, no need to apologise to me at all if you want to degrade and bemoan the new Star Wars movies. I think that drama-wise they're terrible. Although I didn't make it very clear, I was referring to the original Lucas who made the Trilogy, not the new Lucas who seems to have lost the plot. Anyway, if I'd known how many irrelevant posts mentioning Star Wars this quote would bring out I would have left it anonymous!I hold to my belief that a much greater build up and tension would result from showing The Choices of Master Samwise at the end of TTT. Its full dramatic effect won't be appreciated if placed at the start of ROTK. I think that the second instalment of a three-part story is a great place to have a cliffhanger, and turn audiences into ravenous monsters clamouring for the next movie. Of course we're all looking forward to it, but imagine the horror and anticipation experienced by readers of TTT back in the 50s, when they realised they'd have to wait a year for the gripping conclusion. I don't think a flippant reference to "her" is enough to make a cliffhanger. Once again, I believe the filmmakers have left us in pretty much the same place as they did at the end of FOTR. At least they could have foreshadowed a confrontation of Saruman by Gandalf. Instead Saruman appears utterly defeated.PJ and co have gone to great pains to try and explain that TTT and ROTK are not sequels, they are continuations of the same story. True for the books, definitely, but I think the changes that have been made make the TTT movie too similar in the unfolding to FOTR. With the source material they had to work with, I'd say they've done a pretty good job of hashing it up. I like the costumes, though.

Diamond18 · 01-03-2003, 11:49 PM

Like I said in my last post, you have the huge battle of Helm's Deep, and that's a big climax. To have the audience settle back down and get geared up for another plotline would be impossible. I'm actually rather thankful that Shelob is in RotK, now that I've seen TTT, because I fear her episode would have been as rushed and hectic as Faramir's was. I'd rather wait a year and let PJ take time for that scene in the beginning of the movie rather than watch it crammed onto the end of an already crowded picture.I know where you're coming from, Doug, with the Choices of Master Samwise being a good end. I was literally bleary eyed because I tried to read through the first half of RotK really fast so that I could finally read about Frodo and Sam. And I was reading a one volume edition. I can only imagine the plight of 50's era readers.But I think the only way to do TTT complete justice would have been to make it two movies: one centering around Rohan, Helm's Deep, Fangorn, and Isengard, and then another about Frodo and Sam. But since that didn't happen, the movie turned out...well, you know how it went. A bit haphazard and "hashed". I think the relocation of Shelob was rather inevitable, in this case, because Frodo's journey has to share screen time with Aragorn's.So look at it this way. Instead of them doing a sub-par, rushed version of Shelob at the end of TTT, they will perhaps put lots more time and work into leading Frodo and Sam from Ithilien to Her Lair this way. They'll still have to cut back to Aragorn and Co., but this will be in the beginning while the audience is fresh, not at the end when they're "worn out" by Helm's Deep.That's my hope, anyway.[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

pherostien · 01-03-2003, 11:55 PM

I FOUND IT!! I FOUND IT!!! Its definantly saruman. <A HREF="http://www.tolkien-norge.com/news/" TARGET=_blank>www.tolkien-norge.com/news/</A> arkiv/mars02.htmlHope its it.

pherostien · 01-03-2003, 11:56 PM

not working. sorry. type it in and it will come up.

LOTR_know-it-all55 · 01-03-2003, 11:57 PM

I agree with Bill Ferny about George Lucas, and anyway I do not think that PJ needs to take any advice from him! I also think that the appendices make the ROTK seem a whole lot longer than it really is.

Diamond18 · 01-04-2003, 12:01 AM

Here you go: By the way, Know-it-all, that is one dangerous screen name to be sportin' around the Downs. I don't know whether to admire your spunk or fear for you.

LOTR_know-it-all55 · 01-04-2003, 12:01 AM

Too bad you can barely see Saruman in that picture. Oh yeah, and what language is that site posted in? I only speak English and Spanish.

LOTR_know-it-all55 · 01-04-2003, 12:03 AM

Sorry bout the name; my friends call me that. And thanx for the pic!!

pherostien · 01-04-2003, 12:05 AM

Yeah, type in the whole thing. then scroll down and ta da there it is.

Iargwath · 01-04-2003, 07:41 AM

Thanks for the pic Diamond18

Diamond18 · 01-04-2003, 11:19 AM

You can thank pherostien for the link.

Bill Ferny · 01-04-2003, 11:48 AM

Doug,Ah, I see Thank goodness! However, I’m more inclined to agree with Diamond18. The Battle of Helm’s Deep just takes up too much dramatic room, but I do see what you are saying about the choices of Sam thing. It makes perfect sense to end the movie the way the book ended, but to get to that point, there’s a lot of action sequences that would have to be added, and unfortunately they would be overshadowed by the Battle of Helm’s Deep.Well, anyway...The way I see it panning out is that the RotK will center around two, maybe three, principle action sequences: Shelob, the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and maybe the Tower of Cirith Ungol. I see the climax, Frodo at Mount Doom happening simultaneously with the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and, unfortunately, the Field of Cormallen will probably be dropped. This may or may not be a bad thing. First, it might give us a chance to see more of Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead, and possibly him leading an army of undead (I suspect PJ will have them at the Battle of Pelennor Fields rather than the way it happens in the book); this is something that I think PJ can do well on the screen given his background, and, dare I say it, it may be an improvement on Tolkien’s original story. I’m pretty sure that the Scouring will be dropped, or handled in an offhand manner, in the movie wrap-up. That’s not a bad thing, since the Scouring would be kind of anti-climatic on the screen.When I first saw that picture, I occupied a good deal of time looking for a wheel like that in the movie art, but couldn’t find anything like it in any of the scenes depicting Isengard. Personally, I think it’s overly dramatic and stock; I hope its not going to be used, but, oh well, I’m not the one making the movie.

dunedain_aragorn · 01-04-2003, 01:18 PM

i think pj wont do the scouring b/c the end is practically after the fellowship breaks, and since the climax has already been reached, they might have something like "1 year later" and show frodo departing for the grey havens.

Orual · 01-04-2003, 01:52 PM

I think that they should've cut it after Shelob, when Sam still thinks Frodo's dead. The non-believers will be horrified while the rest of us grin to ourselves as we console them. That'll show 'em to neglect to read the classics!I'm kidding, of course, that would've been an incredibly bad move, though I would've thought it funny. I agree that Shelob is probably better off in RotK, as much as it kills me to wait.LoL, looks like very few apples are being hurled at you, Bill! And mine won't join them...I didn't like Star Wars. Blech. They ruined good actors...I know that Hayden Christensen can act, but he just didn't. Oh well, this isn't a SW forum, so I'll stop now.~*~Orual~*~

Nieninque · 01-04-2003, 05:48 PM

I'm actually glad PJ ended TTT where he did because I was emotionally exhausted after Helm's Deep... I mean, first Hadlir dies and all, and I'm crying, and then to see Sam think Frodo's dead... that'd be too much for me, I'd be bawling all over the place.

hobbitlass · 01-04-2003, 09:04 PM

Okay, now for the flip side. These movies are running 3 hours long (and I'm not complaining), so if the Shelob part were put in TTT, that would leave very little for Sam and Frodo to do before reaching Mt Doom. It's great reading all the step-by-step interaction between Sam and Frodo but watching would be very dull. From Cirith Ungol to Mt Doom the only 'action' was when they were mistaken for orcs and started marching back. Gandalf and Pippin ride to Minas Tirith, 'I can't go on, Sam'. The muster of Rohan, 'I'm thirsty, Sam'. The seige of Gondor, 'The ring is heavy, Sam'. Get the picture? As for me, I think having Shelob in the last movie is fine. Waiting another year for a good action part for Sam and Frodo is delicious.

Elven-Maiden · 01-05-2003, 10:37 AM

RotK is actually shorter than the rest of the books, it is the appendix that gives it the appearance of being as long as the first two. Personally, I liked the way TTT ended. We are now sure about Gollum's true nature. It looks awful bad against him, and the anticipation of finding out who "she" is, is suspensful enough, I think.

Cherie Centaur · 01-05-2003, 12:03 PM

Yes, everyone. The Appendices add about 150 pgs. to RotK, so the real story (in my old copy) is about 60 pgs. shorter than TTT. So, they have some room to put things like Shelob's Lair in the next movie. What I think they should've done is made Helm's Deep shorter (it's only one chapter), not have built it up so much, and showed Saruman's surrender, closing up that storyline. The way they did it, your average person thinks Saruman is defeated and now we won't see him again, while us fans are thinking "***" about it. You can't sortof close a storyline like that, wait a year, and then open it back up. It won't work. The ordinary person would be confused. That is my opinion and you can take it or leave it.

Isenna · 01-06-2003, 06:49 PM

Well, I was running out of time and couldn't read all of these posts.About the whole LOTRs Vs SW, I am a converted SW fan, after one reading. As a kid I knew every line uttered in any SW movie and could tell you at least the plot of almost every book, but the new jedi order series and the new triogy are just bad. However, the LOTRs movies, while not the same as the book, are still really good movies (except for some of the FX in TTT).As to the ending in TTT, I don't really care where he draws line between movies. They are chapters in a story, that's all. I'm more upset at the total over-haul of the story.

Roccotari Eldandil · 01-07-2003, 10:14 PM

at first I was horrified to learn that the scouring might be left out...but I guess it makes sense. If I made the movie the scouring part would take at least an hour and that would leave very little time for all the other stuff. And it would be very anticlimactic. But how are they going to explain that Frodo goes to Valinor? A simple dialogue couldn't explain all the anguish that Frodo seems to have gone through because he was a Ringbearer. (Maybe I just have a hyperactive imagination, but I get the feeling that he was really suffering, even after Saruman got his butt kicked and the Shire was restored.) I agree that TTT ended where it should: Shelob would have made the movie too long. oh boy, I can't wait until RotK comes out...I hope I don't cry when Frodo leaves for Valinor and Sam's "Well, I'm home." I almost did when I read the book, but I was on a road trip with my family so I just blinked hard. Even if it IS LotR, if the people around you have never read it they think you're stupid for crying at a book. only...um...eleven months and 10 days!!! (I think. I'm probably wrong, I stink at math.)

01-02-2003, 09:26 PM	#1
Kirsanne_Tolebrass Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 17	Has ne one realized.... ...that in the Two Towers, they kind of stopped the movie in the middle of the book? I'm not complaining, but this means they are going to have to make the last movie really long. Y'all do realize that, right or am I just going crazy? __________________ Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Ignore me, everyone else does. :( @~'~,~

01-02-2003, 09:44 PM	#2
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	Yeah, it was at least a good 200 pages shy of "Frodo was alive, but taken by the Enemy." But I did hear that Return of the King would be three and a half hours long...imagine how long the Extended version will be! But either way they'll have to do some compressing...though I guess that there's room to compress, and it is rumoured that there'll be no Scouring, so that's time saved. Well, I know I'm looking foward to it!<P>~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

01-02-2003, 09:53 PM	#3
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Peter Jackson says: "It will be as long as it needs to be." I hope he holds to that... __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-03-2003, 12:37 AM	#4
Faye Took Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 343	Wow. The extended version for both TT and RotK will be long! I can't wait. I really wish PJ would have kept Scouring of the Shire because I really wanted to see the Hobbits in action! I wonder how he is going to kill Saruman. __________________ Dream-of the ones who came before. They are calling from across a distant shore. My Blog

01-03-2003, 01:03 AM	#5
pherostien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: that place over there Posts: 29	I found a picture about 3 months ago... it was sauruman with a large spike through his stomache at orthanc. But my hopes are still high. i want there to be a scouring. __________________ Alas i will no longer have AOL and will soon be at a new location. i just have to create it first.

01-03-2003, 01:24 AM	#6
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	From what I have heard they are not going to have the Scouring of the Shire in ROTK (Peter Jackson announced that months ago), so that is probably the way that they are going to be able to fit in all the stuff that they did not put into TTT. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

01-03-2003, 01:35 AM	#7
Faye Took Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 343	Now that you mention it, I also remeber seeing a picture of him with a spike through him! OooOoooO I wonder.. __________________ Dream-of the ones who came before. They are calling from across a distant shore. My Blog

01-03-2003, 01:47 AM	#8
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Would anybody be able to locate that picture (the one with saruman and the spike)? I would really like to see that. Thanks __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

01-03-2003, 06:56 AM	#9
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yeah, it was at least a good 200 pages shy of "Frodo was alive, but taken by the Enemy." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ooooh!! Just seeing part of it written like that makes me shudder! I love the book ending of TTT!!! Quite apart from feeling cheated at the end of movieTTT - "where's me spider?!!", I thought that PJs ending left us basically where we were after the first movie. We see lots of shots of the Ring in Frodo's hand, Frodo and Sam gaze meaningfully at each other, I vomit, they wander off into the distance. The action heroes have a big battle, have a little chat, and then they're off as well. In TTT, our action hero list has grown slightly longer, but since they don't get a chance to talk in the final scene that doesn't really matter.<P>George Lucas, someone who has some experience making trilogies, said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the first act you introduce the characters. In the second act you put them in the worst possible situation they could be in. In the third act they get out. That's drama. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>When I first heard that I thought he was simple and egotistical to say something like that. But know I recognise that he was a much better storyteller than PJ and co. I don't think you'll find a better cliff-hanger than The Choices of Master Samwise from the book. Apparently this belief isn't held by certain filmmakers. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-03-2003, 07:04 AM	#10
Arien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: London/Leeds UK Posts: 417	No Scouring of the Shire? Thats just stupid..... But in the FOTR when Frodo looked into the Mirror you saw some scenes wit the hobbits and stuff.....or maybe Im just seeing things again.... __________________ "...still, we lay under the emptiness and drifted slowly outward, and somewhere in the wilderness we found salvation scratched into the earth like a message."

01-03-2003, 10:27 AM	#11
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	That was Peter's way of incorporating that chapter into the films. No Scouring of the Shire. And where is that picture of Saruman with a spike through him? __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

01-03-2003, 11:41 AM	#12
dunedain_aragorn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: a Mcdonald's Happy Meal Posts: 47	I think that since when you take out the appendices the 3rd book is really short, they are trying to put more material in the return of the king. see, the appendices are sooo long. they have to fart around with faramir for so darn long! plus, they wanted a clean ending. it ending with frodo kidnapped would make people VERY angry. and helms deep is such an attention grabber, they wanted to end right after. there, thats my opinion. __________________ "I must take leave, I have not slept since Dunnharrow, and I am weary."said Aragorn. Merry seized his hand and kissed it."I am frightfully sorry, we have been a nuisance to you since Bree." Aragorn laughed and left them. "Was there ever any like him?" said Pippin,"Except for Gandalf of course. I believe they must be related."

01-03-2003, 01:34 PM	#13
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Doug,<P>I'm sorry, but George Lucas really needed to stop when he was ahead. SWII: Attack of the Clones was simply terrible, both as a movie and as a story. It was poorly directed, poorly acted, and one of the most shallow stories I've ever come into contact with. Lucas refused to allow anyone to touch the script, or even read it, prior to filming, and it shows. Please! The climatic battle of the film was between a hyperactive midget and a geriatrics patient!<P>Sure, almost everyone in the movies is indebted to George Lucas to some degree, but Jackson apparently understood the potential of Lucas' visual breakthroughs more than Lucas did himself. The visual effects in SWII looked sterile, forced and faked.<P>Of course, a criticism of anything Star Wars will probably earn me a few more well directed apples. You can say it’s a matter of taste, but taste can only account for so much. On this one, I tend to agree with the professional movie critics. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

01-03-2003, 01:47 PM	#14
Nurumaiel Vice of Twilight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on a mountain Posts: 1,121	No apples from this direction! I entirely agree with you about Star Wars. I was very disappointed with it.<P>I think dunedain_aragorn has a point about ROTK. The appendices are long. I just hope they save room for the Grey Havens.<P>~Nurumaiel __________________ In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.

01-03-2003, 02:51 PM	#15
eleanor_niphredil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: england Posts: 805	Most of the last book is just boring war stuff. That may be okay for reading, but you have to admitt, any war longer or less interesting than helms deep is just not what audiences want these days (especialy those poor anti-tolkien people).<P>With that left out, the third film should be...Four hours long! __________________ Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to spend my time on this forum. And by the way, for any of you turning into a penguin, stop it. ~* I am Pippin took in the Female Fellowship*~

01-03-2003, 04:31 PM	#16
pherostien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: that place over there Posts: 29	I found the pic here on the downs in July. I thought that it would happen in TTT. Dratts!! __________________ Alas i will no longer have AOL and will soon be at a new location. i just have to create it first.

01-03-2003, 06:53 PM	#17
Kirsanne_Tolebrass Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 17	dunedain_aragorn,<BR>I believe your correct, I mean, who would want the movie to end with him being kidnapped and the battle at Helms Deep is really exciting. __________________ Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Ignore me, everyone else does. :( @~'~,~

01-03-2003, 07:52 PM	#18
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Remember that in the last movie PJ ended after he was supposed to. Boromir's death isn't touched on untill TTT but it still worked.<P>I read somwhere that RotK would be centered alot around Faramir and Denethor's relationship. I personally think this is a good idea as it will most likely show us the side of Faramir we wanted to see in TTT.<P>By the Way, here's somthing I found about RotK:<P>The Two Towers is almost upon us, which, while inordinately exciting, means that there's another twelve months until the saga is finally concluded with Return of The King. Luckily for us, Peter Jackson has a few choice morsels to share about the final film, and share he did in The Mail on Sunday yesterday.<P>Promising to be the most spectacular of the three films, Jackson has had to pull out all the stops for the climax, including the enhancement of the film's principal villain, the dark lord Sauron. "The Sauron in the books is sketchy at best, which makes it hard to turn him into a screen villain," says Jackson. "But imagine not really seeing Darth Vader for all three Star Wars films. You just can't do it." It's fair to say that the dark lord will have an increased presence in Jackson's adaptation, rather than being restricted to his role so far, that of a disembodied eye, but the question plaguing Jackson and his crew has been how best to represent the lord of Mordor? "You can't reduce him to being a big guy striding around in black armour, but he cannot be limited to a flaming eye, either."<P>Sauron's henchman, the Mouth of Sauron, will also make his debut in the third film, bedecked in a large helmet that conceals all of his face except his nose and decomposing jaws. Likewise, we'll be introduced to Boromir's father, Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, played by John Noble. ""Denethor resents never being king, and Boromir inherited that bitterness," says Noble. "It's what led Boromir to try to steal the Ring in the first film. It is my job to show the humanity of the man, he is literally driven mad by grief and fear."<P>What we can take for granted is that the action set-pieces, which have multiplied in scope from part one to part two, will reach an all-time high with the final leg of the tale. Jackson promises bigger and better battles that will make the fight for Helm's Deep look like a minor barny down the Rat & Parrot. "The battles will be the biggest you have ever seen," says Jackson of the third film. "We have a piece of software that allows us to have 200,000 computer-generated extras fight each other. You simply press a button, sit back and watch these enormous battles unfold before your eyes."<P>The final scene of the film, which takes place across the landscape of the Grey Havens is tipped by the director to be his favourite of all three films, the high point of the story and what everything has been working towards. "To me, it's a culmination of the entire story," he says." It represents what it is to give and what it is to lose. That scene is probably the most powerful part of the entire film." <P>Another year to wait? It is a cruel world indeed.<p>[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ] __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

01-03-2003, 08:18 PM	#19
Nieninque Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: East Bight Posts: 67	I'm totally with you, Bill. I can't believe I spent four dollars on an Attack of the Clones ticket and two hours of my time watching it cringes <BR>Yes, the appendixes are really long (I believe there's six of them) and take up at least one hundred pages in my edition.<BR>I wasn't angry at PJ for ending TTT that early. After all, Gollum's last line was very forboding... __________________ ----- Legolas: A red sun rises in the East. Blood has been spilt this night. Aragorn: Goddamn elf's talking to himself again! I'm surrounded by weirdos...

01-03-2003, 10:19 PM	#20
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Hands Bill a polished red apple<P>I do agree with you, good sir! I myself did enjoy SWII quite a bit, but that was only becaue I went in expecting cheesey action and humor, and nothing more, and therefore had not much to be disappointed by. But I have not run out to buy the DVD and I'm not waiting for ep.III in tortured anticipation. I also think that Return of the Jedi could have been so much better than it was.<P>Doug, let me re-quote your GL quote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the first act you introduce the characters. In the second act you put them in the worst possible situation they could be in. In the third act they get out. That's drama.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And then your remark:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When I first heard that I thought he was simple and egotistical to say something like that. But know I recognise that he was a much better storyteller than PJ and co. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really think that you should stick with your initial opinion. Lucas does really oversimplify matters. It would be terrible indeed if PJ and Co. were to reduce RotK to a simple "they get out".<P>The ending of TTT the book was pure genius, but I don't fault the movie for not ending there. Simply because Helm's Deep was so huge that everyone was ready for it to be over after that climax was "maxed". I'm not sure that after three hours of a movie people are ready for the other hour it would take to pass by Minas Morgul, climb the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, pass through Shelob's Lair, fight Gollum and Shelob, have an <I>extremely</I> emotional scene where Sam must agonize over leaving Frodo for dead and continuing the Quest, then learn that no! Frodo isn't dead after all!<P>I think these scenes really do need another movie to do them justice. To tack it onto the end of Helm's Deep would be trying to do too much, I think. Tolkien had the luxury of isolating the two narratives; that wouldn't have worked in a movie. Especially since PJ wouldn't want us to forget about the other half of the Fellowship, and so he'd have to include a good deal of RotK. That would make the movie five hours. It would make a great DVD, but I probably would have killed the popcorn munching chatterboxes behind me by hour four.<P>I want to return to the point about RotK deserving more than George Lucas's simple formula. It's true that Frodo and co. exited the screen rather peacefully and hopefully, but PJ did have the brains to hint at the horror that is to come. Audiences will be waiting all year to see "her", whether they're Tolkien fans or not.<P>Tolkien saved the best for last when it came to the other half of the Fellowship, what with the Pelennor Fields and Denethor's madness and all. He didn't look at RotK as a simple resolution, he looked at it as the last hurrah, the knock down, all out battle for the world; a wonderful, poetic, heartbreaking...eh...what I mean to say is, it won't hurt to have the stellar drama of the Choices of Master Samwise juxtaposed with the lead up to the Pelennor, as it seems that all hope is lost....<P>I did not intend for this post to be this long. Honest! I just find so much to pick on with TTT, that I might as well defend what I think is a good move on PJ's part. You don't mind if I take a bite from that apple, do ya Bill? <p>[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-03-2003, 11:28 PM	#21
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Bill me old cobber, no need to apologise to me at all if you want to degrade and bemoan the new Star Wars movies. I think that drama-wise they're terrible. Although I didn't make it very clear, I was referring to the original Lucas who made the Trilogy, not the new Lucas who seems to have lost the plot. Anyway, if I'd known how many irrelevant posts mentioning Star Wars this quote would bring out I would have left it anonymous!<P>I hold to my belief that a much greater build up and tension would result from showing The Choices of Master Samwise at the end of TTT. Its full dramatic effect won't be appreciated if placed at the start of ROTK. I think that the second instalment of a three-part story is a great place to have a cliffhanger, and turn audiences into ravenous monsters clamouring for the next movie. Of course we're all looking forward to it, but imagine the horror and anticipation experienced by readers of TTT back in the 50s, when they realised they'd have to wait a year for the gripping conclusion. I don't think a flippant reference to "her" is enough to make a cliffhanger. Once again, I believe the filmmakers have left us in pretty much the same place as they did at the end of FOTR. At least they could have foreshadowed a confrontation of Saruman by Gandalf. Instead Saruman appears utterly defeated.<P>PJ and co have gone to great pains to try and explain that TTT and ROTK are not sequels, they are continuations of the same story. True for the books, definitely, but I think the changes that have been made make the TTT movie too similar in the unfolding to FOTR. With the source material they had to work with, I'd say they've done a pretty good job of hashing it up. I like the costumes, though. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-03-2003, 11:49 PM	#22
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Like I said in my last post, you have the huge battle of Helm's Deep, and that's a big climax. To have the audience settle back down and get geared up for another plotline would be impossible. I'm actually rather thankful that Shelob is in RotK, now that I've seen TTT, because I fear her episode would have been as rushed and hectic as Faramir's was. I'd rather wait a year and let PJ take time for that scene in the beginning of the movie rather than watch it crammed onto the end of an already crowded picture.<P>I know where you're coming from, Doug, with the Choices of Master Samwise being a good end. I was literally bleary eyed because I tried to read through the first half of RotK really fast so that I could finally read about Frodo and Sam. And I was reading a one volume edition. I can only imagine the plight of 50's era readers.<P>But I think the only way to do TTT complete justice would have been to make it two movies: one centering around Rohan, Helm's Deep, Fangorn, and Isengard, and then another about Frodo and Sam. But since that didn't happen, the movie turned out...well, you know how it went. A bit haphazard and "hashed". I think the relocation of Shelob was rather inevitable, in this case, because Frodo's journey has to share screen time with Aragorn's.<P>So look at it this way. Instead of them doing a sub-par, rushed version of Shelob at the end of TTT, they will perhaps put lots more time and work into leading Frodo and Sam from Ithilien to Her Lair this way. They'll still have to cut back to Aragorn and Co., but this will be in the beginning while the audience is fresh, not at the end when they're "worn out" by Helm's Deep.<P>That's my hope, anyway.<p>[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-03-2003, 11:55 PM	#23
pherostien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: that place over there Posts: 29	I FOUND IT!! I FOUND IT!!!<BR> Its definantly saruman.<P> <A HREF="http://www.tolkien-norge.com/news/" TARGET=_blank>www.tolkien-norge.com/news/</A> arkiv/mars02.html<P>Hope its it. __________________ Alas i will no longer have AOL and will soon be at a new location. i just have to create it first.

01-03-2003, 11:56 PM	#24
pherostien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: that place over there Posts: 29	not working. sorry. type it in and it will come up. __________________ Alas i will no longer have AOL and will soon be at a new location. i just have to create it first.

01-03-2003, 11:57 PM	#25
LOTR_know-it-all55 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Meduseld Posts: 46	I agree with Bill Ferny about George Lucas, and anyway I do not think that PJ needs to take any advice from him! I also think that the appendices make the ROTK seem a whole lot longer than it really is. __________________ Legolas Greenleaf, long under tree in joy thou hast lived.Beware of the Sea! If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.

01-04-2003, 12:01 AM	#26
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Here you go:<P> <P>By the way, Know-it-all, that is one dangerous screen name to be sportin' around the Downs. I don't know whether to admire your spunk or fear for you. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-04-2003, 12:03 AM	#28
LOTR_know-it-all55 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Meduseld Posts: 46	Sorry bout the name; my friends call me that. And thanx for the pic!! __________________ Legolas Greenleaf, long under tree in joy thou hast lived.Beware of the Sea! If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.

01-04-2003, 12:05 AM	#29
pherostien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: that place over there Posts: 29	Yeah, type in the whole thing. then scroll down and ta da there it is. __________________ Alas i will no longer have AOL and will soon be at a new location. i just have to create it first.

01-04-2003, 07:41 AM	#30
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Thanks for the pic Diamond18 __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

01-04-2003, 11:19 AM	#31
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	You can thank pherostien for the link. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-04-2003, 11:48 AM	#32
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Doug,<P>Ah, I see Thank goodness! However, I’m more inclined to agree with Diamond18. The Battle of Helm’s Deep just takes up too much dramatic room, but I do see what you are saying about the choices of Sam thing. It makes perfect sense to end the movie the way the book ended, but to get to that point, there’s a lot of action sequences that would have to be added, and unfortunately they would be overshadowed by the Battle of Helm’s Deep.<P>Well, anyway...<P>The way I see it panning out is that the RotK will center around two, maybe three, principle action sequences: Shelob, the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and maybe the Tower of Cirith Ungol. I see the climax, Frodo at Mount Doom happening simultaneously with the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and, unfortunately, the Field of Cormallen will probably be dropped. This may or may not be a bad thing. First, it might give us a chance to see more of Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead, and possibly him leading an army of undead (I suspect PJ will have them at the Battle of Pelennor Fields rather than the way it happens in the book); this is something that I think PJ can do well on the screen given his background, and, dare I say it, it may be an improvement on Tolkien’s original story. I’m pretty sure that the Scouring will be dropped, or handled in an offhand manner, in the movie wrap-up. That’s not a bad thing, since the Scouring would be kind of anti-climatic on the screen.<P>When I first saw that picture, I occupied a good deal of time looking for a wheel like that in the movie art, but couldn’t find anything like it in any of the scenes depicting Isengard. Personally, I think it’s overly dramatic and stock; I hope its not going to be used, but, oh well, I’m not the one making the movie. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

01-04-2003, 01:18 PM	#33
dunedain_aragorn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: a Mcdonald's Happy Meal Posts: 47	i think pj wont do the scouring b/c the end is practically after the fellowship breaks, and since the climax has already been reached, they might have something like "1 year later" and show frodo departing for the grey havens. __________________ "I must take leave, I have not slept since Dunnharrow, and I am weary."said Aragorn. Merry seized his hand and kissed it."I am frightfully sorry, we have been a nuisance to you since Bree." Aragorn laughed and left them. "Was there ever any like him?" said Pippin,"Except for Gandalf of course. I believe they must be related."

01-04-2003, 01:52 PM	#34
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	<I>I</I> think that they should've cut it after Shelob, when Sam still thinks Frodo's dead. The non-believers will be horrified while the rest of us grin to ourselves as we console them. That'll show 'em to neglect to read the classics!<P>I'm kidding, of course, that would've been an incredibly bad move, though I would've thought it funny. I agree that Shelob is probably better off in RotK, as much as it kills me to wait.<P>LoL, looks like very few apples are being hurled at you, Bill! And mine won't join them...I didn't like Star Wars. Blech. They ruined good actors...I know that Hayden Christensen can act, but he just didn't. Oh well, this isn't a SW forum, so I'll stop now.<P>~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

01-04-2003, 05:48 PM	#35
Nieninque Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: East Bight Posts: 67	I'm actually glad PJ ended TTT where he did because I was emotionally exhausted after Helm's Deep... I mean, first Hadlir dies and all, and I'm crying, and then to see Sam think Frodo's dead... that'd be too much for me, I'd be bawling all over the place. __________________ ----- Legolas: A red sun rises in the East. Blood has been spilt this night. Aragorn: Goddamn elf's talking to himself again! I'm surrounded by weirdos...

01-04-2003, 09:04 PM	#36
hobbitlass Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: next to the fire keeping warm Posts: 471	Okay, now for the flip side. These movies are running 3 hours long (and I'm not complaining), so if the Shelob part were put in TTT, that would leave very little for Sam and Frodo to do before reaching Mt Doom. It's great reading all the step-by-step interaction between Sam and Frodo but watching would be very dull. From Cirith Ungol to Mt Doom the only 'action' was when they were mistaken for orcs and started marching back. <BR>Gandalf and Pippin ride to Minas Tirith, 'I can't go on, Sam'. The muster of Rohan, 'I'm thirsty, Sam'. The seige of Gondor, 'The ring is heavy, Sam'. Get the picture? As for me, I think having Shelob in the last movie is fine. Waiting another year for a good action part for Sam and Frodo is delicious. __________________ Just because a person has the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.