Glorfindel

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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I have a question which has really been bugging me <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\"> .
In the Silmarilion, it recounts of the death of Glorfindel, the golden haired elf, in battle with a balrog in Angmar. How then could he attend the Council of Elrond in Lord of the Rings?

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[Taimar]

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Re: Glorfindel

This has been discussed on another place on the Barrow-downs before, Gwaihir. Here is a quick recap.

When an Elf dies their fea(spirit) goes to the Halls of Mandos to await rebirth. The length of time between death and rebirth depends upon the circumstances of the Elf`s death and the manner in which he lived his life. Since Glorfindel died in such a noble, self-sacrificing manner he was permitted to return to Middle-Earth after only a short period of time. This also happened to Finrod who &quot;walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar&quot;(or words to that effect).

Rebirth is perhaps the wrong term to use, since the process actually involves the fea recreating the hroa(body) from memory and then reinhabiting it. The Elf in question is not actually born again.

I recommend that you read the section in Volume X of HoME (Morgoth`s Ring) entitled &quot;Laws and Customs Among the Eldar&quot;, which covers this subject comprehensively.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

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Re: Glorfindel

Glorfindel was the only Elf that was alowed to return to Midle -Earth.

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Glorfindel

When Luthien returned to Beleriand after sitting in the halls of Mandos, I know that she was mortal ... but was she still an Elf?

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[Taimar]

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Re: Glorfindel

Dior was certainly an Elf, so I assume Luthien passed her nature on to him, since he obviously could not have received it from his mortal father.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: Glorfindel

Thanks, Taimar <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> . I always thought that once an elf had passed on to the Halls of Mandos, his spirit simply remained there, awaiting release when the world ends. Don't know where I picked that up from.

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[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Glorfindel

Dior was not an Elf he was the first of the Peredhel. By the Judgement of Manwe, Dior's fate would have been that of Men. Luthien remained genetically an Elda/Maia mix. The change that was granted to her was that she was allowed to die and seek elsewhither as do Men.

Tar-Elenion

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[Taimar]

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Re: Glorfindel

Tar Elenion, thanks for the correction. Where is Dior referred as `Peredhel`? I assume it is in HoME XI or XII, since these are the only books I do not own. Also, which race did Dior choose to be? Or, since he was fairly young when he died, did he never get to make a choice?



Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Peredhel

I always understood that the Peredhel were only Elrond and Elros.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[burrahobbit]

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Re: Peredhel

Also Earendil. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the spring of the year after was born in Gondolin Earendil Halfelven<hr></blockquote>

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Peredhel

The 'Shibboleth of Feanor' says that &quot;Earendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior son of...&quot;; and: &quot; By the marriage of Earendil to Elwing... the lines of the Pereldar(Peredhil) were united.&quot; This is a quick reference there are likely others.
There is nothing in the published corpus stating that Dior had or was given a choice as to which kindred he might belong too. As I have noted above, by the Judgement of Manwe (that a being with any mortal blood shall be mortal unless given other doom) Dior who was not granted any other doom had the fate of Men (see 'Lost Road' for reference). Of course something different might come to light in the writings yet to be published, but until then this is the best that can be guessed at.

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[lindil]

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Re: Peredhel

Is there any word out on future publications ala Unfinished/History?
I got the impression that Vol. 12 was the end of the line though CRRT says there are 'complex philological 'writings [elven] that didn't make the HoME cut.

The Dior thing is quite a mystery since there is no mention of any dispute in doriath of of a Mortal ruling a kingdom of Elves. This could be due to the incredible reverance Beren and Luthien were held [ not too mention the desperate state Doriath had fallen into] or is it not possible that Dior's race was never pre-or dained by the Valar.
There decision regarding the Half-Elven did not come till after Earendil reached Valinor.
I suppose this could be that the Valar knew that Dior would not live long -so it would never become an issue.
Yet the idea of a man rul;ing a kingdom of Elves
and it's uniqueness never being commented on I find remarkable.


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[Taimar]

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Re: Peredhel

I agree entirely, Lindil. The fact that Dior ruled Doriath with no hint of controversy was why I had always assumed that he was considered to be elven. I had always thought that Earendil was the first of the Peredhel.

The point about him having to make no choice because the Valar knew he would die young is also interesting. If he were of the Eldar, Mandos would have been aware of his fate, but if he were mortal his fate would have been unknown to the Valar.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Peredhel

There are no more planned 'History' volumes to my knowledge (except a possibe History of the Hobbit). However some new material does occasional come to light from the Marquette Archives. Some linguists have access to the unpublished writings therein and occasional peices of it get published.

The Elves of Nargothrond had no problem with Turin being in charge of them. The Elven refugees in Arvernien had no problem with Tuor being their lord, and Earendil after.

Tar-Elenion

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[gamegie]

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Re:Glorfindel

This might appears as a very naive question, but what was Glorfindel doing out at the Ford looking for Strider and the Hobbits when he seems to have been such an important elf. Assuming he was the only one allowed to come to Middle Earth after dying........I really must get myself another copy of the Silmarillion and read it........

And what a pity Elrond and Glorfindel and the others of Elrond's house not attend to the final great battle of Minas Tirith ( excluding Elrond's sons who took part in their way)

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Re:Glorfindel

Glorfindel was sent on an errand to find the hobbits and protect them if neccesary. It was a foruitous choice that Glorfindel was the seeker that found them. Lesser elves might not have had the ability to lessen Frodo's pain and later drive the Black Riders into the Bruinen.

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[gamegie]

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Re: Re:Glorfindel

In that case what was a high elf like himself doing out on the errand when he should have been with the likes of Elrond in the security of Rivendell. Is he not of the same level and ligneage of Elrond?

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Re:Glorfindel

For the very reasons I stated... he was tough. Why not send out a valiant knight on the most likely path to find the hobbits. They were sure to need defense...not just finding.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Taimar]

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Re: Re:Glorfindel

Elrond knew that the Nine were searching for Frodo and the others. Glorfindel was one of the few who could hope to stand against them.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_ball.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 9/4/00 10:36:48 am

[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Glorfindel

Yes I understand that as he was tough Elrond sent him out against the nine. But his role limits itself to this, a bit sad for someone of such a high ligneage, isn't it?

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Glorfindel

I think that several of us feel that way generally about the contribution of the elves to the War of the Rings.

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[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Glorfindel

Thank you Galpsi..... It is sad because elves are in themselves such a fantastic race and so much could be said about them.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Glorfindel

The High Elves had almost lost their last dominion of Middle-Earth by the War of the Ring.

"Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journey's end."</p>

[HerenIstarion]

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By the end of T.A. elves were already fading, and their role in 'settling things' was diminished. As for Glorfindel in Middle Earth again, I think he himself has chosen to come back to hither lands.