gimli - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

lore_master · 03-07-2003, 04:15 PM

i was just wondering, did gimli die or not?

in the timeline of the desendents of durin IX it says that gimli died in like 15 f.a., but later it says that he went unto valinor with legolas

which one is it?

Legolas · 03-08-2003, 12:18 AM

After Aragorn died, Legolas and Gimli sailed to Aman. Gimli was still mortal, though, just like Sam, Bilbo, and Frodo. All four died eventually. The dates are unknown.

Lalaith · 03-08-2003, 05:11 AM

Where is this timeline? A death in 15 FA would be a short lifespan indeed for Gimli.

Legolas · 03-08-2003, 07:24 AM

The date of his death is not given, but it has to be after 120 of the Fourth Age, because that is when Aragorn dies and Legolas/Gimli head to Aman.

03-08-2003, 09:09 AM

does legolas die then..? is it known when if he do..?

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-08-2003, 09:23 AM

No-because Legolas is an Elf and thus immortal. Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo and Sam all would've died because they were mortal.

Orual · 03-08-2003, 10:35 AM

This confused me for a long time, too, but I think I've finally got it figured out.

Valinor is a place of peace, and Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli were much happier there than they would have been in Middle-earth (especially, I think, Frodo and Bilbo). But being in Valinor didn't make them immune to the effects of mortality, and eventually they died. The purpose of bringing them to Valinor was not to make their lives last forever, but rather to make the time that the had left happier and more peaceful, since they had gone through so much and no longer "fit" in Middle-earth. The Elves, however, would have been immmortal no matter where they lived--Valinor or Middle-earth--so Legolas never died.

C'est ca.

~*~Orual~*~

the guy who be short · 03-13-2003, 04:20 PM

yay! im a wight now!
but gimli and legolas were extremely good friends, right? perhaps when he died (gimli), legolas surrendered his life so he could join gimli, and possibly aragorn, and the others. just a possibility?

Meoshi · 03-13-2003, 04:28 PM

Another crazy thought to throw around here:

Could it be possible that being in the presence of his maker would have made Gimli immortal? After all, Aule had never gotten a good chance to teach his skills to his children, the dwarves. He'd love to have a good student around. Although the Gift of Men cannot be taken away, nothing is said about rules regarding the Doom of Dwarves. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-13-2003, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Could it be possible that being in the presence of his maker would have made Gimli immortal

Nope. Only Elves are free from mortality. (With a few special exeptions) Aule cannot just change things as he sees fit. I presume that Legolas and Gimli went to Tol Erresea first, so, Gimli being rather aged, might've died there. Besides, Aule is thought to have created a hall in Mandos for Dwarves.

Meoshi · 03-13-2003, 04:49 PM

I was thinking Aule could make the request to Manwe, who could make the request to Illuvatar, who doesn't really care about the Dwarves much anyway and hasn't got any special plans for them that requires them to be mortal.

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-14-2003, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Illuvatar, who doesn't really care about the Dwarves much anyway and hasn't got any special plans for them that requires them to be mortal.

1. He cares as much for the Dwarves as he does for Elves or Men.

2. Nontheless, Dwarves are still mortal. You can't just change a creatures fate, because you feel like it. Read 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10) for info. on what would happne to mortals if the reached Aman. (It's about men, but the same could be said about Dwarves.)

3. Dwarves are said to help Aule when re-building Arda.

Man-of-the-Wold · 03-15-2003, 02:22 PM

In the final analysis, Gimli's fate is a mystery, but a great one.

The peace thing really applies only to Bilbo, Frodo & Sam, as they were Ringbearers and could not peacefully live out their days in Middle-Earth, although with Sam it was as much to see Frodo again; I also see them essentially taking the places of Elrond's children. Nevertheless, we are to believe that in time, which may not correspond to any particular Middle-Earth Year, they indeed died and left this world.

As for Gimli, his reason for wishing to go to Elvenhome, and remarkably, being admitted, was his love for both Legolas and Galadriel.

Just as Tuor was evidently given the privilege of staying forever there in some place and context with Idril, it would be more conceivable if Gimli was given some such special dispensation.

Actually, in my mind it is less likely, however, because Gimli was not as singular as Tuor, and I also believe Tuor and Idril do not dwell with everyone else in Eldamar/Valinor, and for Gimli there would not be much point unless he could live freely among his various friends.

But in a sense it is more conceivable (though I believe not) that Gimli might be allowed to live forever there, because Dwarves are not "mortal" in the same sense as Men, and by implication, "Hobbits."

In Middle-Earth, their bodies do show signs of age, and they do experience failings of eyesight and agility, but not it would seem the debilitations and illnesses visited on Men. Theirs is also a very long earthly existence, lasting centuries, before they die naturally.

At that time, there is only confused indications of what happens, but it does not seem that they depart the Circles of this World like true Mortals, whose spirits and bodies are of different natures.

Rather, my sense is that Dwarves go to spend the rest of eternity in the "timeless" Halls of Mandos ... "to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed. ..., and go where [gold and silver] is of little worth, ..." Thorin, The Hobbit.

Then, it may be believed that the Dwarves arise and aid Aule in the remaking.

This is what I believe happened to Gimli, after he had again seen Galadriel and (probably at least) Sam (and possibly Aule). He finished his days like any other of the Khazad (joining Dain, Balin and Gloin), except oddly enough his passing occurred on Tol Eressea, representing possibly the final reconciliation about Elves and Dwarves.

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-15-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

I also see them essentially taking the places of Elrond's children.

We don't know if Elladan and Elrohir chose to remain in M-E or went to Aman/Erresea.

Man-of-the-Wold · 03-16-2003, 11:01 PM

Yes .. Yes, but that's another topic, and my opinion is what it is.

03-07-2003, 04:15 PM	#1
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	gimli i was just wondering, did gimli die or not? in the timeline of the desendents of durin IX it says that gimli died in like 15 f.a., but later it says that he went unto valinor with legolas which one is it? __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

03-08-2003, 12:18 AM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	After Aragorn died, Legolas and Gimli sailed to Aman. Gimli was still mortal, though, just like Sam, Bilbo, and Frodo. All four died eventually. The dates are unknown. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

03-08-2003, 05:11 AM	#3
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Where is this timeline? A death in 15 FA would be a short lifespan indeed for Gimli. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-08-2003, 07:24 AM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The date of his death is not given, but it has to be after 120 of the Fourth Age, because that is when Aragorn dies and Legolas/Gimli head to Aman. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

03-08-2003, 09:23 AM	#6
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	No-because Legolas is an Elf and thus immortal. Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo and Sam all would've died because they were mortal. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

03-08-2003, 09:09 AM	#5
Thalionhision Guest Posts: n/a	does legolas die then..? is it known when if he do..?

03-08-2003, 10:35 AM	#7
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	This confused me for a long time, too, but I think I've finally got it figured out. Valinor is a place of peace, and Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli were much happier there than they would have been in Middle-earth (especially, I think, Frodo and Bilbo). But being in Valinor didn't make them immune to the effects of mortality, and eventually they died. The purpose of bringing them to Valinor was not to make their lives last forever, but rather to make the time that the had left happier and more peaceful, since they had gone through so much and no longer "fit" in Middle-earth. The Elves, however, would have been immmortal no matter where they lived--Valinor or Middle-earth--so Legolas never died. C'est ca. ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

03-13-2003, 04:20 PM	#8
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	yay! im a wight now! but gimli and legolas were extremely good friends, right? perhaps when he died (gimli), legolas surrendered his life so he could join gimli, and possibly aragorn, and the others. just a possibility?

03-13-2003, 04:28 PM	#9
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	Another crazy thought to throw around here: Could it be possible that being in the presence of his maker would have made Gimli immortal? After all, Aule had never gotten a good chance to teach his skills to his children, the dwarves. He'd love to have a good student around. Although the Gift of Men cannot be taken away, nothing is said about rules regarding the Doom of Dwarves. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

03-13-2003, 04:49 PM	#11
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	I was thinking Aule could make the request to Manwe, who could make the request to Illuvatar, who doesn't really care about the Dwarves much anyway and hasn't got any special plans for them that requires them to be mortal.

03-15-2003, 02:22 PM	#13
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	In the final analysis, Gimli's fate is a mystery, but a great one. The peace thing really applies only to Bilbo, Frodo & Sam, as they were Ringbearers and could not peacefully live out their days in Middle-Earth, although with Sam it was as much to see Frodo again; I also see them essentially taking the places of Elrond's children. Nevertheless, we are to believe that in time, which may not correspond to any particular Middle-Earth Year, they indeed died and left this world. As for Gimli, his reason for wishing to go to Elvenhome, and remarkably, being admitted, was his love for both Legolas and Galadriel. Just as Tuor was evidently given the privilege of staying forever there in some place and context with Idril, it would be more conceivable if Gimli was given some such special dispensation. Actually, in my mind it is less likely, however, because Gimli was not as singular as Tuor, and I also believe Tuor and Idril do not dwell with everyone else in Eldamar/Valinor, and for Gimli there would not be much point unless he could live freely among his various friends. But in a sense it is more conceivable (though I believe not) that Gimli might be allowed to live forever there, because Dwarves are not "mortal" in the same sense as Men, and by implication, "Hobbits." In Middle-Earth, their bodies do show signs of age, and they do experience failings of eyesight and agility, but not it would seem the debilitations and illnesses visited on Men. Theirs is also a very long earthly existence, lasting centuries, before they die naturally. At that time, there is only confused indications of what happens, but it does not seem that they depart the Circles of this World like true Mortals, whose spirits and bodies are of different natures. Rather, my sense is that Dwarves go to spend the rest of eternity in the "timeless" Halls of Mandos ... "to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed. ..., and go where [gold and silver] is of little worth, ..." Thorin, The Hobbit. Then, it may be believed that the Dwarves arise and aid Aule in the remaking. This is what I believe happened to Gimli, after he had again seen Galadriel and (probably at least) Sam (and possibly Aule). He finished his days like any other of the Khazad (joining Dain, Balin and Gloin), except oddly enough his passing occurred on Tol Eressea, representing possibly the final reconciliation about Elves and Dwarves. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

03-16-2003, 11:01 PM	#15
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Yes .. Yes, but that's another topic, and my opinion is what it is. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

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