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02-27-2003, 09:24 PM | #1 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gondolin, Middle Earth
Posts: 103
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Older than Sauron?
In TTT it says:
Quote:
Are these nameless things ever mentioned again? (or before this) could they be worse than Balrogs? I was under the impression that Sauron was made before the beginning of ME. I did a quick search to see if this had already been adressed but didn't find anything about it.
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02-27-2003, 10:03 PM | #2 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Atop the peak of Kalormė
Posts: 163
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Perhaps they were in the world before the Ainur came into it.
But that couldn't be so...they couldn't be evil then. If all evil was caused by Melkor, then how could an evil thing exist before the Ainur? Maybe Illuvatar has an evil streak to him. That would explain the rotten shape he left the insignificant humans in at the end of the 3rd age, while coddling the elves. |
02-27-2003, 10:19 PM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 369
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Gandalf did not say they were evil, only nameless.
But yes, the context would be that they were there before Sauron came into the world.
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Tar-Elenion |
02-28-2003, 12:34 PM | #4 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
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I wonder if the Wathcher in the water was one of these 'nameless things' ? (I've always thought of them as the 'disgusto-monsters' from D+D, green slime, carrion crawlers etc.!)
This raises an interesting point about Sauron though. As I understand it, the Valar and Maiar were created before Arda, so Sauron must be older than anything of middle earth. However, perhaps Gandalf was counting from when Sauron entered Arda. The 'nameless things' must surely have been created (or twisted) by Melkor, so does this mean that Sauron was a relative latecomer (in maiar terms) to Arda?
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02-28-2003, 01:16 PM | #5 |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor
Posts: 201
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We dont know when Sauron came in to the world, Melkor could have turned these things to evil befor he even came in to contact with Sauron
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02-28-2003, 01:45 PM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Something close like Shire
Posts: 769
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In Ainulindalė it reads that the valar came to Eä first and were called the Powers of the World. Manwė called for other spirits later to help to create Arda and combat the evils of Melkor.
But from the words in Valaquenta it could be inferred that the maiar came with the valar. Go figure... But it is quite clear that ainur were created before the world existed and Sauron was older than anything on earth. So most likely Gandalf ment that those nameless things were in Middle-Earth before Sauron lay his foot there in his "physical" form. And Sauron didn't know them for Melkor had created them with his 'music' and they were only in his mind (well of course Eru knew their form). I really don't know if this makes any sense. The whole issue gets the more confusing the more you think about it! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]
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02-28-2003, 04:59 PM | #7 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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i belive that these things probably were made during the music and were there thus before melkor or sauron came to middle earth and probably hid during the great darkness from dread creatures and elves under the mountains.
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02-28-2003, 05:08 PM | #8 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Quote:
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03-01-2003, 02:06 AM | #9 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
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Tolkien messed up. He would have fixed that if he'd noticed.
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What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
03-01-2003, 03:42 PM | #10 |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
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TOLKIEN MESSED UP? TOLKIEN COULD NOT MESS UP! HE'S A GENIUS...actually, come to think of it, he probably messed up.
i have a contribution to make. could the maiar reproduce? if they could, sauron couldve been the son of two other maiar. this would mean he was younger than the earth, giving the nameless things which we should probably name now that we're gonna talk about them lots time to hide under the surface of arda. |
03-01-2003, 03:54 PM | #11 |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
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how about calling them squimplets? i like it. then again, i would. if u wanna be more normal, call them N.T.'s, but i prefer squimplets.
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03-01-2003, 06:47 PM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Guy Who Be Short:
In response to your question, I provide you with a link to a really cool thread: Ėalar and Incarnation. |
03-03-2003, 02:52 AM | #13 | |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
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the las of beleriand, HoME 3.
Quote:
this shows that some things are older than even morgoth. but morgoth was an ainur who were created before the world. so this suggests that rather than just one god, eru, there were many, and eru was just one of them. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] |
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03-03-2003, 06:23 AM | #14 |
Hungry Ghoul
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,719
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Age can only be measured from the point when a being enters time [and space], that is, enters Eä. Some of the beings who were with Eru before the creation of Eä entered it sooner, and are thus considered older, than others.
That is of course under the prerequisite that there was no (measurable) time before Eä came into existance. This is the case with just about any concept of time and the Ainulindale on the other hand of which I can think. |
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