Black Speech and Ringwraiths

[Sapphire_Flame]

Okay, I have a question. Black Speech is regarded as an evil language among the Free Peoples in Middle-earth. An example of this would be when Gandalf recites the Ring-Spell at the Council of Elrond and everyone is somewhat rattled by it. If that's the case, why does everyone use the term Nazgul so often? It's a Black Speech word, so, the way I figure it, no one would want to say it. Why don't they just use the Elven term, or keep calling them the Ringwraiths or Black Riders. All those terms still apply.

Maybe this doesn't make sense, but I'd appriciate your opinions! What do you think?

[Sharkû]

"Free" people who use the term Nazgûl in The Lord of the Rings: Gandalf, Radagast; probably the only ones who had the cheek to. Others, including Aragorn, for example, never use the Black Speech name.

[Legolas]

Aragorn did muster the courage to say it once, but still, this was only once. Other than Gandalf, Radagast, and Aragorn's one instance, no others said the word as Sharku said, save the orcs (who aren't 'free').

‘He is nearly spent,’ said Aragorn turning to Gandalf. ‘But this comes not from the wound. See! that is healing. Had he been smitten by some dart of the Nazgûl, as you thought, he would have died that night. This hurt was given by some Southron arrow, I would guess. Who drew it forth? Was it kept?’

The recent film is inaccurate, of course. Faramir screams 'Nazgûl!' in the scene at Osgiliath. I guess if you make up your own scene, you might as well make sure the dialogue is inconsistent with the book also.

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Sharkû]

Full text searches should be done carefully, I concede. However, it is interesting that Aragorn only uses the term in the relative safety of Minas Tirith after the siege, and after the Witch-King had been reduced to impotence.

I am not sure to what extent uttering the Black Speech draws the attention of the Nazgûl to the speaker. The concept of that seems implied especially in The Fellowship of the Ring; but whether the language would have such power, or the Ringwraiths such fine perception is doubtful.

However, if we dwell on this speculation for a moment, we could have the reason why only the istari dared to draw that attention to them -- they were, as powerful spirits, quite perceivable certainly farther than the Black Speech could have been heard even by the Ringwraiths anyway.

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[doug*platypus]

To call them anything but Nazgûl is euphemistic. Nazgûl is the most evil and most applicable term for them. Anyone wishing in a certain situation or in general to make them appear utterly evil does not hesitate to use the word. Only someone who has an enormous fear of them, like Gollum or the hobbits, will not dare to speak their proper name. Even the word Mordor has dark connotations, and is not used lightly, at least not in the Shire.

So the reason that the word Nazgûl is used is the same reason that Gandalf chose to use the Black Speech at Rivendell - for effect.

[akhtene]

To call them anything but Nazgûl is euphemistic.

Allow me to disagree with this. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] RINGWRAITH is the exact translation for NAZGUL.
naz = ring
gul = wraith
So the wise, who know the names for all beings in their languages, use the 'original' word. Common folk prefer their own tongue.

[doug*platypus]

Right, I've got my shield of Rohan out.

Nazgûl is the most evil and most applicable term for them.

The difference between Nazgûl and Ringwraith is the same as the difference between f*ck and intercourse. Sound, and usage. Of course they both mean the same thing, but if that meant that they were both equal as words, then one would surely fall out of usage. Same with all homonyms. We could stop using thousands of homonyms in any of our language, and while we wouldn't be at a loss for words, the language would not be as rich and expressive.

[akhtene]

The difference between Nazgûl and Ringwraith is the same as ...

between DEVIL and CHORT (meaning the same, but in Russian). [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Which do you think I say when this machine doesn't work properly? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

Only someone who has an enormous fear of them, like Gollum or the hobbits, will not dare to speak their proper name. Even the word Mordor has dark connotations, and is not used lightly, at least not in the Shire.

Note that only two people are without an enormous fear of them. A third said the word, but only after the Witch-King met his doom.

The origion post was misleading.

If that's the case, why does everyone use the term Nazgul so often?

As explained about by Sharku/myself, only Gandalf and Radagast (and Aragorn once) used the term. It was not a term used often - that is a misconception born of Peter Jackson and New Line Cinema.

[Eldar14]

I'm talking off of memory from quite a while ago, and I may be wrong, but I believe one of the elven words for the nine is Nazgul, borrowed from the black speech. Of course, I may be going crazy and I'm completely wrong, but I think there's some truth in this. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Falagar]

naz = ring
gul = wraith
So the wise, who know the names for all beings in their languages, use the 'original' word. Common folk prefer their own tongue.

[whisper]Actually it should be:
Nazg-ring
ûl-wraith [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img][/whisper]

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[Eldar14]

Au contraire:

Nazg - ring
gul - wraith