Sam and Frodo

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

Can people please stop saying that they are because its really annoying, I've just read LOTR again and every time Sam said somin to Frodo like "I love you Mr. Frodo" My mind came right back to posts just like these ones and it really ****es me off. Ofcourse there not gay, it was much more acceptable when Tolkien wrote it to say things like that.

[Rosa Underhill]

(You forgot to read the rest of the post. We're all in agreement with you; Sam and Frodo aren't homosexuals.)

Y'know, you don't even have to show close friendship with someone to be labeled as a homosexual. I don't know how it happened, but I was accused of being a lesbian solely for the reason that I had never gone out with anyone at my school.

(Even if they were serious it's sounds like they were having too much fun to listen.)

I think you're very right, Marileangorifurnimaluim. (Can I call you "Maril" or something, for short? That's a really long name! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) If they ever did actually talk about the topic, they were either cooing over how "cute" *harf!* it would be to see Sam and Frodo kiss or flaming each other. I gave up trying to talk reason to them. But I did have fun messing with the people in the "Talk to Your Favoiret Characters" forum! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (I sent a message as the Gaffer and yelled at Sam, who then accused Frodo of being homosexual. *sigh* It was still fun, though.)

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Wow, I'm amazed you can spell Marilean.. Marileangorit.. oh heck. Yes, Maril's what I use.

You know, when I was in high school it bothered me my friends thought Sam and Frodo were gay. Now I can see the fun in it without getting defensive. I guess I was too close to it before to give myself much room to explore, the LotR was an absolute. Now I look at the LotR more as a writer and less as a member of ME. So I think, how would one write the story with such a spin? What then would be the unwritten background? Tolkien did not consider anything he wrote as an absolute, his imagination was fertile, constantly tinkering and changing and trying out new ideas.

[Rosa Underhill]

Well, the truth is, Maril, I can't spell your name. I highlighted it, cut it and pasted it into my post! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I'm a bit too close to Middle-earth to be able to take such humor very lightly. Sometimes I can, though. Also, I have foul memories of dirty and immature middle-school jokes concerning the subject, so it's a sore spot for me still. If I were closer to the person I used to be, I have no doubt that I'd find the whole situation endlessly funny.

As a writer, I find myself being inspired by Middle-earth more than anything has inspired me. So it's close to my heart in that way also. But I've always tended to feel that reading and writing was more essential to me than just exercising imagination; it's very much a deep part of my existence in an almost spiritual way. (Yeah, I know it sounds odd, but it's true.)

[goldwine]

Quote:
One day, they joined hands while walking down the hall. From that day on a rumour spread through our school that they were lesbian lovers.

The talk of Frodo and Sam being gay is the same phenomenon. It is a misinterpretation of affection.
_____________________________________________

Couldn't agree with you more Solikat! I had a similar experience with my girlfriend - we are both happily married (to men!)but have a closer sisterly relationship. We are careful not to hug to enthusiastically after comments in a shopping centre!

I have likened Sam and Frodo in the same way - they have a deep brotherly affection (certainly influenced by the master/servant hero worship thing). Each would glady lay down their life for their friend. This is not a weak feeling that they have for each other - it is a deep and abiding love which is not reliant on sexual urges which pass with time!

It is such a pity that many need to corrupt this pure and sacrificial relationship in order to understand it. I find that true about much of the story - the heroism and bravery of Tolkien's characters are often broken down to the lowest common denominator.
Aragorn often kissed the other members of the fellowship or embraced those dear to him. We just aren't comfortable with this, are we?

Perhaps another thread could be whether bravery, sacrifice, heroism and friendship are as easily understood in our culture as they were in Middle Earth!

[Kalessin]

This little gem from above caught my eye ...

"I so rarely hear a mature opinion outside my own circle that I'm beginning to wonder if the average mental age isn't down to about twelve"

... to which I would gently reply - you need to get out more [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

On the main topic, I think Maril has got it about right about Sam and Frodo. There are primarily three kinds of male bonding apparent in LoTR - the traditional master/manservant relationship (ie. between Sam and Frodo, or Merry and Theoden) ; the chivalric knightly love (ie. between Eomer and Aragorn) ; and the natural friendship of equals (ie. Merry and Pippin, or Legolas and Gimli).

These were literary / cultural norms in England at the time of writing LoTR, but as society and culture has changed we have become less willing to accept both the essential romanticism and the inherent inequalities therein. For example, it could be problematic now to show the love of a dogged and loyal black servant to his Confederate master. And unconditional hero-worship for a warrior leader was brutally explored in Platoon, while unconditional allegiance and respect for command was ripped to shreds in Catch 22.

The homoerotic aspect of such relationships has also been exploited in a very English way in the Lindsay Anderson film If, and more recently for comic effect in The Fast Show. As a potential aspect of male bonding it is an accepted phenomenon, and hardly anything at all to do with gay love.

The whole story, however, seems to me patently devoid of intentional sexuality or eroticism of any sort. And again, this is a reflection of the author's time and culture. The awareness we have now of the sexual undertones in traditional fairy tales, or of the Eastern myths with their occasionally rampant libido, were NOT part of Tolkien's worldview. I would cite Mallory's Arthurian epic as a typical cultural model for the chivalric nature of all the relationships in the book.

Okay ...

There is another interesting little sub-plots running through this thread - on the changing nature of language.

The English language is a pragmatic and opportunist mongrel - adaptable, shameless and willing to steal or amalgamate as required. The etymology in most sentences will illustrate that ... a helping of Latin, a little French, some colonial Indian or Caribbean, perhaps more recently a little Native American, a bit of Tuetonic - the list is endless.

It's neither a good thing or a bad thing in itself that it changes. What the changes are, and whether we like them or not, is up to us. Personally I am just old enough to remember a time when nouns were different from verbs, before synergy, foregrounding and so on ... and Satellite TV and text messaging IS taking us ever closer to Orwellian Newspeak. But we're the ones that are doing it! We get - and create - the language we deserve. Still, as a new visitor here, I am reassured that articulacy and eloquence still flourish [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Peace

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Well said, Earthsea wizard. (I myself am from Atuan.)

I believe I recall (from a friend quoting Tolkien's Letters?) that among Tolkien's divergent goals he sought to create with the LotR a truly English epic, along the lines of Beowulf, and felt Mallory wasn't quite up to the job. (I don't know on what basis, though I doubt it was simple dislike.)

On the subject of language, there's the Linguist view and the English professor's view. The one embraces language as a primal source of communication no matter what the means, or beauty, or lack of elegance. Change is natural and therefore good, and language is important only as a means, not an end in itself. The classic English professorial view appreciates language as a form of art or, probably nearer the mark, geometry, as language to them has a near-geometric precision, perfection and beauty. Ignoring its structure and rules is as painful to them as an off-key note is to someone who has perfect pitch.

Given Tolkien's love of the language, I've no doubt we'll find more Professors and fewer Linguists here! If this were a Forum dedicated to Kerouac I'd expect the reverse.

Always a pleasure Kalesin.

-Maril

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Rosa Underhill]

Welcome, Kalessin! It's very refreshing to see so many intelligent people gathered in one place!

That having been said, I feel I must go and read more, prod those inactive braincells into a semblance of life. Having read your and Maril's posts, I'm feeling a bit inferior. (I know, never compare oneself to others, but it's late and sleepiness does strange things to me.) Still, thank you for putting that out in the open! Very refreshing.

On languages: all I can say with certainty is that, while watching the National Geographic documentary about LotR, I cried when it mentioned the impending doom of around three thousand languages. I want to learn Finnish now.

[Joy]

The Hobbits are gay, and so are the Elves!

I mean, they are happy and merry creatures. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Had you all going for a second there.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I believe I recall (from a friend quoting Tolkien's Letters?) that among Tolkien's divergent goals he sought to create with the LotR a truly English epic, along the lines of Beowulf, and felt Mallory wasn't quite up to the job. (I don't know on what basis, though I doubt it was simple dislike.)

The Morte d'Arthur is very French in tone and ideals (not to mention certain characters and incidents). That may have been a factor.

... to which I would gently reply - you need to get out more

To hear a mature opinion or to stop caring about their absence? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think that if I get out any more regularly to my usual haunts I'll go deaf and lose the articulation in my neck. Perhaps I just need to go to different places, where conversation isn't drowned out by guitars.

Personally I am just old enough to remember a time when nouns were different from verbs, before synergy, foregrounding and so on

I thought that they still were different, but that the ability to speak one's own language had been dropped from the job requirements for most positions.

... and Satellite TV and text messaging IS taking us ever closer to Orwellian Newspeak. But we're the ones that are doing it!

No we're not. If I were involved in the process I shouldn't be complaining about it. I don't object to anything more than the spread of ignorance due to the belief that there's nothing wrong with it. I don't dislike all slang or every development; only those that result from laziness, stupidity or dearth of knowledge, and which result in an unnecessary inelegance of expression.

The relationship between Frodo and Sam is one of the most gripping and satifying things in LOTR and it's very sad that in this day and age certain people can't see it for what Tolkien meant it to be.
I never had a problem when reading about any of their situations, if anything I'd be glad to be in a time period like that and to share such a deep, loving and worthy friendship. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[the_master_of_puppets]

very nicely put sol.

*raised her glass*

[Kalessin]

Hi Squatter, thanks for an eloquent dissection [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Your comment about "rarely hearing mature opinions outside your own circle" just struck me as slightly amusing. I'd like to think that as open-minded people we can all accept there are a whole range of articulate and meaningful interchanges going on outside any of our own circles. However, I reserve the right (along with you) to be concerned and scathing about about the "dumbing down" of our collective culture, and where possible to name and shame the culprits.

I agree Mallory's saga was particularly French. I was really using it as an exemplar of the concept of chivalric love between warriors (knights), by way of exploring some of the male to male relationships within LoTR. There may well be other examples, and as Tolkien himself said, he felt there was a dearth of truly English epic narrative that had any of the grandeur or poetic depth of European mythologies such as Beowulf.

And yes, nouns and verbs are still different. But some are more different than others [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And ones that were once different are no longer so.

Finally, the job of evaluating changes in language is a difficult one. As Maril stated above, there might well be differences between a linguists' view as opposed to that of an English Professor. As to what constitutes laziness, stupidity or inelegance, this is the key point. As I said, we all participate in language, and all take some degree of responsibility. In truth, we probably cherrypick some of the changes that appeal to us, or unconsciously adopt new expressions by way of our communal instincts. And we are bound by subjectivity in this - the idea that there is only 'one' correct or appropriate way of communicating, and that language must be used in a way that one or some of us deem intelligent and elegant, is elitist and also unrealistic, and takes no account of history.

Yet this is all relevant to Tolkien in a roundabout way. For he said of the Elves that they had become obsessed with the 'fading', and maintained archaic ideals of art that were unchanging and, as time moved on, diminishing in relevance and resonance. And this was their burden.

Let's use music as a comparison. There are many who would say that modern music (such as that which drowns out mature opinion) has none of the elegance, depth or aesthetic form of classical or ancient folk forms. Yet we are all affected by it, and all musicians absorb their era and synthesize some aspect of modernity in their work. Those who don't, for whatever worthy reason, are anachronisms (btw I do like some anachronisms). It's the same with the spoken word, and the feeling that "things are getting worse" is a peculiarly constant phenomenon.

So, like you, I don't like or appreciate everything that happens in language. And I will rail against the verbal shorthand of our age. But I take some (sheepish) responsibility for it too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, these boards are certainly a place where lengthy and erudite prose can be found in abundance (in my case, more abundance than anything else), for which I am grateful.

Peace

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

What ho, Kalessin.

Your comment about "rarely hearing mature opinions outside your own circle" just struck me as slightly amusing.

I can be more pompous than that if it entertains.

I agree Mallory's saga was particularly French. I was really using it as an exemplar of the concept of chivalric love between warriors (knights), by way of exploring some of the male to male relationships within LoTR.

It's great for that, but I think that its Frenchness may have influenced Tolkien against its author as a writer of English epics. He once spoke out against the Norman conquest in his school debating society.

So, like you, I don't like or appreciate everything that happens in language. And I will rail against the verbal shorthand of our age. But I take some (sheepish) responsibility for it too

Never. I will never take responsibility! Do you hear? Never! *Runs off into the distance, hair shedding straws liberally...*

*...returns, straws replaced and wearing a neat rolled-gold trilby and cast-iron spats*

Actually I like to flit around between different idioms of English, depending on my mood. Rhyming slang; Wodehousean old-beanery; 1940s RAF-speak; Whitehallese and, of course, the lager-fuelled obscenities of the twenty-something rocker: each has its place. I just don't like to see them mixed up and used in inappropriate places. If this and the desire for elegance are elitist then so be it; I'd rather see a few people doing something well than a lot of people doing the same thing badly.

[Kalessin]

Well said [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] You have earned my undying respect (purely chivalric of course, don't even go there).

Perhaps a postmodern re-working of LoTR should be attempted, with parallels of his linguistic distinctions that will resonate more accurately with our 21st century times.

The Shire of course should be Essex, home of many robust and homely citizens, with Ray Winstone as a grizzled Bilbo. Mordor naturally becomes the wasteland known as South East London (somewhere between Lewisham and Docklands). The Elves would primarily consists of media types and ex-art students (David Bowie as Elrond, Tom Paulin and Germaine Greer as Celeborn and Galadriel). The heroes of men could be modelled on the England rugby team, complete with public school accents and old school tie camaraderie. The Nazgul Witch King of Angmar would have to be played by Ali G (as a kind of demented gang leader), while Sauron would necessarily be Simon Cowell, silently and malevolently pulling strings from beyond the pale. Ugluk and Grishnak could be Grant and Phil Mitchell from Eastenders. Of course Gandalf would ideally be universally recognised as a font of wisdom - a sort of Bob Holness or Terry Venables figure. And it could be re-titled 'Orcs, Walks and Nine Smokin Geezers, innit'.

Hm .... time to wind up that particular stream of consciousness.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

*Takes bow. Hat falls off into puddle. Thinks: At least I didn't get deaded this time*

Swords, Lords and three Elven Rings, possibly?

[the_master_of_puppets]

Trying to make myself read and understand some of these long points has been difficult (most probably because i cant be assed getting my glasses from the other room) but that isnt important.

I only asked this in a light hearted way, i didnt mean to offend any die-hard Tolkien fans or make people think im some kinda of reject for wondering.

It just seems to me some people seem to be taking the matter a little serious and out of propotion: we're all allowed an opinion wotever it may be. Although i no longer have any wonderings: sam and frodo we certainly not gay.

[Rosa Underhill]

Perhaps a postmodern re-working of LoTR should be attempted, with parallels of his linguistic distinctions that will resonate more accurately with our 21st century times.

NOOOOOOOOOO!!! Don't do it, don't do it! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (*shudder* Oo, that was horrible, just horrible! May it never happen... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

Yay! Someone else has seen the light and discovered the joys of logical thought! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And don't worry, master_of_puppets, I don't think you've offended anyone. Kalessin and Squatter are just having fun while exercising thier brains simultaniously. (I don't understand all of what they're saying either. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

[the_master_of_puppets]

im glad im not the only 1!!!!
and im thankful u dont think iv offended anyone.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Oo, that was horrible, just horrible! May it never happen...

But then we'd be denied a cinematic tour de force. Gandalf could say to Frodo:
"This O R is a magical object, created in Eregion, which is sought by many and enslaves its bearers."

Aragorn could say: "That Uruk-Hai chap would make an amazing full-back."

And the Witch King could say to Eowyn: "Is it because I is a Ringwraith?"

Of course, they couldn't be called the Nazgul any more. Frodo and company would have to be running from the Staines Massive. Respec'

(I don't understand all of what they're saying either. )

People are supposed to understand this? That's where I've been going wrong.

I only asked this in a light hearted way, i didnt mean to offend any die-hard Tolkien fans or make people think im some kinda of reject for wondering.

I don't think that anyone's upset with you, MoP. It was worth it just to get that image of David Bowie as Elrond...

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Uh-huh. Alternatively Darth *I mean* Mark Sidran is Sauron, Mordor is located in Redmond at One Microsoft Way. Anything north of Seattle is Dunland (trust me on this), and Nick Licata is Gandalf.

If we're going to be regional...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

One Microsoft Way? The Land of Shadow indeed. Presumably there'd be a dungeon called the Registry. Actually, if that's the Enemy's camp, does that mean that Gandalf would be a UNIX developer? He has the beard for it: 'Once I knew every possible use of rgrep used in the lands west of Maine, but I have forgotten much.'

Actually I think I preferred being regional: it's slightly less sad.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I think Gandalf would be a LINUX developer, beard notwithstanding.

Yes, let's get back to jolly old England, shall we? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[firncristwen]

Before you examine the books ever so closely for homosexual undertones, you should examine your own thoughts that cause you disgust about homosexuality. There's room in this world for so many deities (among them Tolkienism) and preferences...why not homosexuality?

This may sound contradictory to what I said before, Tolkien was a devout Catholic and believe me, there is little to none chance he would put a gooseberry or two in his series [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Although I for one am certain that Tom Bombadil was nature's bachelor, despite dear Goldberry and also that New Yorker article you think I'm plagiarizing right now. I'm not. !!!

I think the underlying message in the trilogy is love. Love enough to fight for honor, love enough to fight for love, love enough to fight for what's right. And certainly there was love between the characters. Remember that Sam married Rose. And remember also the story of love between Legolas and the elf-maiden Milwen that Tolkien told Christopher that I really really really hope all of you have heard before because it's a good story and if you haven't heard it I'll feel obliged to tell you...

[Elven-Maiden]

THEY WERE NOT GAY!!!!!!!

Sorry, I'm not shouting at you, but I hear that all the time, and I just can't understand why people can't have a best friend anymore without people wondering. Legolas and Gimli- best friends, NOT GAY!!!!!

I feel better now! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Elven-Maiden]

Oh! What love story between Legolas and Milwen??? Please tell!

[Rosa Underhill]

Agreed, Elven-maiden, agreed. It's not the homosexuality itself that bugs me, firncristwen, it's the fact that just about everyone is seeing it where it isn't.

I was just at Bit of Earth, a most tragic site which I will not provide the link to. (It's the only Sam Gamgee fan page out there but you'll never guess what much of the fan art and almost all of the fanfiction is about...) Urg. It's inspired me to come up with this odd little idea that I might just have to draw out because I'm in a protestin' mood!

(Frodo is sitting at his desk, typing at the computer. Sam walks in the room.)

Sam: Hey, Frodo. What're you doing?

Frodo: Oh, just looking up some stuff on the 'Net. I hear we've gotten quite popular with the Big Folk since that movie came out.

Sam: Erm, yes. Exactly what are you looking up, Mr. Frodo?

Frodo: Fanfiction. I just want to see what everyone thinks.

Sam: I see. (Leaves room, comes back with a waste paper basket and sets it by Frodo's desk.)

Frodo: What's this for?

Sam: You'll see, you'll see. *shudder*

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Yes, let's get back to jolly old England, shall we?

Quite right, Marileangorifurnimaluim old thing. Nothing like a yarn or two about the jolly old Seat of Mars, what? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Blackpool as Minas Morgul? Any takers?

firncristwen: you are, of course, correct. The gay-subtext theory wasn't dreamed up by any of us, though. We're just giving it a good, thorough debunking for the benefit of anyone who was told it by someone who sounded as though they knew whereof they spoke.

[Kalessin]

Nice idea Squatter (my dear old thing), but I still think Mordor is Essex. There is a huge industrial research centre (Dagenham, I think), with a white minaret-style tower (churning out dangerous toxins) that you can see for miles (aka Barad-Dur). And Southend sea-front on a Friday night is as close to the Black Gates as you'll get.

Maril, I admit the Bill Gates-as-Sauron (or Microsoft as the corrupting music of Melkor) has legs. But I'm also swayed by Ronald McDonald as the expression of ultimate evil. He just has more inbuilt malevolence than Bill Gates, no?

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Ronald MacDonald, marvelous! That leaves me with the Hamburglar as the King of the Nazgul. Free winning game pieces to MacDonald's next Monopoly game to whoever comes up with the best Mordor-MacDonald's analogy.

As for myself *pulling up a rotting log at the Sqatter's current home* I admit I rather enjoy the way picturing a homoerotic undertone changes whole sections of the LotR. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] After reading it 30 times I feel a certain right to license with the story.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Would it solve the quandary if we say that the übergeek is Sauron, but that the clown's Morgoth, source of corruption?

[Daegwenn]

Nope. They aren't. But what is the big deal? I don't get it.

~~Daegwenn

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Please be welcome to join the conversation, but are the previous posts too opaque, too difficult and complex to follow? Or was it just too much trouble to read the discussion from the beginning, or at the very least back a few posts?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I dread to think what reading this lot from the beginning would do to a rational mind.

[the_master_of_puppets]

iv read it all (argh dear god, i can hardly focus my eyes now)...wot legolas and elf maiden story?! thats all i really felt like asking.

and whats all this about david bowie as elrond?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

See Kalessin's suggestion for a post-modernist Lord of the Rings film above

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

" - but are the previous posts too opaque, too difficult and complex to follow?"

Blinking, having re-read some of these posts, I have to say yes, in fact they are. You were saying -?

[Samwise Gamgee]

Basically tolkein was writing in a style most people do not understand today. It was pointed out in an essay (by Marion something - I forget her name) that legolas when the balrog comes screams. Today that would be a very sissy thing to do, but in the "time period" described, men showed emotion. It is an improper attitude, common nowadays, in men that to be manly is to shout and show no emotion. What is more, our culture no longer recognizes the distinction between lust and love (that could probably be traced back to a certain Sigmund Freud, but that is a whole different subject). Love between a man and woman in marriage is a commitment, not an infatuation. Most people do not recognize that. Since that is the prevailing idea in our culture, and since physical expression of emotion is so rare, Sam and Frodo's intense love expressed in physical ways - a kiss, a caress - is construed to be sexual.

That explains why people think this way. But the reasons against it are so many. REason number one - Sam had 14 children! Who could see that, and call Sam a homosexual.

Well, I know how infuriating it is to hear people accuse the two hobbits of such perversion. When I found out, I almost cried. How could they do that? But I have accepted that people will always do their best to pervert truth and beauty. (especially fan-fic writers <groan>)

I can only say that I'm glad I can read passages such as shelob's lair over and over, and savour the beauty of the description of Frodo asleep on Sam's lap (isn't that just the most poignant moment of the whole trilogy) and not see a trace of anything evil in it.

PS: beginning with the stairs, I believe Sam and Frodo's relationship to be really that of a father to a son, and who would blame a father for comforting his beloved child, naked or no?