Gandalf and Sauron

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If Gandalf was not constrained in power in Middle Earth would he be as powerful as Sauron. Seeing how they are both Maiar I would think yes. However I did read something I can't remember which lead me to believe that not all Maiar had the same amount of power, which would say one would be superior to the other. Both are constrained since Gandalf cannot use his full power in Middle Earth and Sauron put much of his power in the Ring, but Sauron seems to have much more power even then. Gandalf fights atleast a few of the Nine on Weathertop, defeats the Balrog at the cost of his own life, casts down Saruman the once head of the Istari, and stands down the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith. I think it is safe to say that by the time he is Gandalf the White, he is the second most powerful being on Middle Earth.

My favorite quote says it: &quot;Dangerous!&quot; cried Gandalf. &quot;And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.&quot; -Gandalf

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[burrahobbit]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I've been thinking about this myself. the Valar and Maiar are the same thing, Ainur (I wonder which part of the song Gandalf did), only with different levels of power. Melkor is listed as the most powerfull, and for one to have the most power there need to be at least two levels. So it is very possible, maybe even definite, that Sauron would be more powerfull than any of the Istari if they were allowed to show their true power. Maybe the idea was to send many lesser Maiar but with power totaling greater to overthrow Sauron so none would become a new Dark Lord, or a much lesser Dark Lord that could be overthrown much easier, say, with the knife of an underling.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Correct me if I'm wrong but I always was lead to believe that if two Maiar did battle in Middle Earth it would have cataclysmic repercussions. This is why the Istari were constrained in power. I mean the Valar could easily come over and take care of this.

The Valar numbered 15 who were the mightiest of all. The Maiar served the Valar. It seems the Maiar did vary in power, since it was named Eonwe was the mightiest. Gandalf was acknowledged as the wisest of the Maiar. Balrogs were once also Maiar.

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[Balin999]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

burrahobbit i think if the white council had overthrown Sauron with the help of the One , one of them HAD to claim the power over the others and after saurons defeat would have become the &quot;new&quot; Dark Lord
i think gandalf says it when he talks to frodo in &quot;the shadow of the past&quot; or in the council of elrond im not sure.


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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Even Galadriel, who was only Elven, was afraid to use the One Ring lest she lest be overwhelmed by the power it would impart. But the power would be just that, imparted. And since it was the power of an evil Maia, she would be turned to evil without a doubt.

But in this case, I'm sure that Gandalf could overcome her. The chief Istari could certainly overpower anyone who was 'borrowing' the power of a Maia.

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[burrahobbit]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Balin, I meant the combined power of the Istari without the added &quot;boost&quot; of the Ring. I count the Ring as Saurons power. Much like when the Valar grouped against Melkor, who was strongest of their kind, in the beginings of the world.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[galpsi]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Might want to think about Tolkien's background as an English Catholic and as a Medievalist in this context. Conciliarism vs. ultramontanism and definitions of error. Leo IX, Gregory VII and all that. Maybe these discussions are supposed to remain within Middle Earth? Please correct if so.

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Thoughtful discussions....

Non-Middle-Earth topics like you have suggested are fine as long as we keep them in their own thread. If such things are discussed enough, I'd be happy to create a forum for them.

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[Balin999]

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Re: Thoughtful discussions....

i see burrahobbit
and Turin, i remember galadriel telling frodo (when he wants to give her the ring) that she would be both beautiful and terrible and no one could stand to see her or sth like that

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[Taimar]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Olorin (Gandalf) states in UT that he is afraid of Sauron. Perhaps this indicates that Sauron would be more powerful in a direct confrontation.

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Maybe he fears what will happen.

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[Oliphaunt]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

In my opinion, I don't think Gandalf could have beaten Sauron. Sauron was the number 2 to Morgoth, the most powerful of the Valar and the Maia. Morgoth had thousands of servants, orcs, dragons, fell beasts and balrogs (also Maia). We don't know what Gandalf's status was among the rest of the Maia.&lt;p&gt;
The next thing we have to consider, is that even if Gandalf waltzed up to Mordor, with everyone, all the wizards, all the elves from Rivendell, Lorien, all the Ents in Fangorn, Gondor, Rohan and any ally they could muster, I still think that the hosts of Mordor could defeat them if the Ring of Power were not destroyed.&lt;p&gt;
And even if Gandalf could do that, I don't think he would. The job of the Istari was too help, not do everthing. It was supposed to be there struggle. I also agree with the idea of the effect it would have on ME.

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[galpsi]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I think that your last point, Oliphaunt, is the point. But as to whether he could have sucessfully challenged Sauron, do we think that the Dark Lord's retreat from Dol Guldur was purely strategic?

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 7/11/00 6:29:36 pm

[Taimar]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

It is clearly stated that Sauron`s retreat from Dol Guldur was a `feint`.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[galpsi]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

It is clearly stated (at the Council of Elrond) that the retreat in 2941(t.a.) before the forces of the White Council was a feint. I know no such clear assessment of Sauron's retreat to the East in 2063(t.a.).

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[Taimar]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[galpsi]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I really meant that reference more as a question than as an answer. But then, I think that the question sits best that way, unanswered. It seems to me that this was an issue which JRRT left unresolved, at least within the confines of LotR. There is seemingly contradictory material pertaining to it. It is always hard to be sure whether JRRT even solved this question for himself, or whether he even cared to. If so, I think he chose not to foreclose thought on the subject by a decisive answer. Maybe, instead, the question of the two Maia's relative strength seemed to him like an unwise diversion from the more pressing issue of banishing the corrupting power of the Ring from ME. Not that I forbear from hazarding opinions. Sauron was weaker when Gandalf drove him from Dol Guldur in 2063 than he was during the War of the Ring. His preponderant might seems to me to be one of the essential preconditions of the of the story of the War of the Ring as JRRT told it.


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[lindil]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

beautiful discussion!
I would love to some day explore the idea of how the Catholic Churches own internal debates set some or most of the stage for JRRT's conception of the hierarchy of the Ainur -
but I am afraid it would be almost total speculatioon {unless someone knows of sources of T.'s church readings -that I don't}
as to what he did or didn't know.

however I am reminded of the fact that 2 non-Ainur defeated sauron with the ring.
was not Gandalf with glamdring the &quot;equal &quot; of Elendil and Gil-Galad w/ their respective weapons?
Of course we will neverknow and the point was rightly made earlier
that the istari came not to engage in sraight on confrontations of power - but rather as some would now say-build community . help to restore the essentialy broken links between the differnet racesand lands in a way that a mortal {even a world traveler and Elf- friend such as Aragorn } could not.
lindil



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[galpsi]

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Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I'm similarly interested in the Catholic pedigree, but I don't think that anybody has troubled to bibliograph Tolkien's reading. The project smacks of dissertation. The White Council -- the group at xenite.org, not the one in the third age -- seems to have explored the Inklings angle as much as anybody I know of. If you haven't already, check their archives or maybe start a thread to see if anybody there knows.

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[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I agree that Gandalf and Sauron are of equal power.... however I feel that when Gandalf was reborn as Gandalf the white I feel that Gandalf's power was not constrained in middle earth as he was *impervious* to all wounds and the Nazgul seemed afraid of him during the battle upon Mordor... If I am wrong however please correct me!!

Goodbye and Farewell wherever you and may your eyries recieve you at the journy's end!!

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[Tar Elenion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

JRRT says that Sauron and Ganalf are of a similar nature or origin that is they are Maiar. However he says that Sauron is of a far higher order. This indicates to me that Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf.

Tar-Elenion

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[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Tar-Elenion
is the reference to Sauron being of a far higher orderin HoME or letters ? I do not recall it in LOTR /SIlm/UT.


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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I've read on a forum (forgot wich one) that the combined power was greater than that of sauron but the power of a single Istari was less then Sauron cause if one of the istari was tempted te be a new dark lord he would be more easly overthrow then the yester one.

but if you count the wisdom in some one strength i would say that Gandalf would be a stronger then Sauron

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[Serevian The Ranger]

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

[inglorion]

Good point Serevian and thanks for bringing this discussion back to life again, else I had never discovered it and then the world would have to live without this post [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The whole 'who is stronger'-issue is of no importance if you ask me. Since Gandalf was not allowed to use his full strength to accomplish what he was sent for: the destruction of Sauron. If the whole thing was just a matter of brute strength don´t you think the Valar would have sent someone who would have obliterated Sauron and his gang? The Valar were quite clear about this being a problem of Middle-Earth and not of Aman, however since they were still the Guardians and all, they sent in the Istari to help the Free Peoples. Not to do the job for them.
Another point is the way in which the Evil, in this case Sauron, is battled is very important. Of course the One Ring makes the matter more complicated. You can´t just go and beat the hell out of Sauron making sure he will never be able to cast his shadow over the world again, and expect everything to be ok. The Ring will find itself a new master and so on ... The only way to get rid of Sauron was the indirect sneaky approach used by Gandalf, inspiring those he helped to stand up and do something about it, as is plainly shown in 'The shadow of the past' where Gandalf gradually leads Frodo to his departure from the Shire. By telling him all about the Ring he makes Frodo see the best thing to do is to leave, which he almost certainly wouldn´t have done without Gandalf´s information. There are many more examples in the book of this kind of work, Gandalf´s work. This is what he does, nothing more and nothing less. Of course on a few occasions he uses force, but only when all other possibilities have run out and only in a restricted way. I think if he really was to show his full strength, bearing in mind he had Narya, it would have made quite a firework.
However, his skill was not in force but in wisdom, the opposite of Sauron you might say. That is why you can´t really say which one is stronger; their fields of development are too different.

Greetings, gildor

[mordor136]

I have been wondering since I first found this forum. Sauron is only one Istari,and he is handicapped because he put most of his power into the one ring. Could not all the Istari combined overthrow Sauron. The blue wizards, radagast , gandalf,and saruman are all maiar. So they should be able to pull it off.

[Fenrir]

If there was another Last Alliance led by Gandalf I suspect the two great armies would cancel each other out.
ME would be ruled by Hobbits, the only race that wouldn't participate. Everything east of the Misty Mountains would be completely destroyed.

[Turambar]

I believe that Gandalf says at least twice in LotR that Sauron is more powerful or dangerous than him.

[inglorion]

Certainly he says Sauron is more powerful, simply because Sauron´s specialty is being powerful and dangerous; that´s why he´s in Middle-Earth after all.
Gandalf shouldn´t be powerful, that´s not his nature, although he is of course quite powerful. There are different ways to use power:
the Sauron-way vs. the Gandalf-way.
Maybe Sauron is more powerful because his way is the easy way. Gandalf said somewhere that Sauron was becoming very powerful but he still wasn´t above fear. Giving in to ones fears is easier then resisting them. And according to Master Yoda fear leads to the Dark Side. Maybe it´s not entirely LotR but I think the old Jedi´s words can be used for this whole situation as well.

[Serevian The Ranger]

your welcome i like bringing stuff to life even dead dogs

[Lindolirian]

In the Silmarillion it says that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar. But it said that Gandalf (then known as Olorin) was the wisest. Irt doesn't help Sauron much to have all the power but to not use it properly. For example he did a stupid thing in letting a few little insignificant (or so he thought ) hobbits ito his realm. He considered Gondor to be the greater danger. So it was not all the power that made him the best but being not as wise as Gandalf that killed him.

Sauron is only one Istari,and he is handicapped because he put most of his power into the one ring. Could not all the Istari combined overthrow Sauron. The blue wizards, radagast , gandalf,and saruman are all maiar. So they should be able to pull it off.
---mordor

let me just say that sauron was not an istari, for there were only five. gandalf, saruman, radagast, alatar, and pallando.
you could say that if the wizards should combine their powers to overthrow the dark lord, they would win.
But to reiterate what a few have been saying, its purely skeptical. They were sent not to fight power with power, but to educate and urge the free peoples of middle earth to fight sauron in some way. And if their powers were constrained, then it becomes doubly hard to speculate.

[Elendur]

I will set one thing straight, and that is Sauron is not one of the Istari. The Istari were Maiar sent to Middle Earth with restrictions on their power and the same weaknesses that mortals had. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth in the Third Age, whereas Sauron had obviously been around since the beginnings of Ea. And Sauron had no restriction to how he could use his power.

This is kindof an odd topic to have a thread on anyways. Gandalf, or the other Istari, would not have directly assaulted Mordor. They could not have won.

[Luineglin]

we will never know because the istari could not reveal themselves and let us know how truly powerful they really were. sauruan is not an istari so we cannot know his true amount of power either there are many ifs and maybes in this topic. another point i will reiterate is that the istari could not assualt morodor but rather encourage the other free races to do so.

[Elrian]

Sauron was a Maia, who once served Aule before aligning himself with Melkor. He was stronger than both Saruman and Gandalf.

[obloquy]

I recently posted a quote from HoMe that clearly implied that Olorin was equal to Sauron in power, though not greater.

[Elrian]

I don't think he was greater than Sauron in the form he was sent in though. They were sent to aid the free peoples not confront Sauron outright. But as Olorin, he would have been a match for him.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Legolas]

To the poster who mentioned all 5 Istari taking on Sauron - we know the blue wizards set off into the west and did not return. It's not written anywhere, but it may be safe to assume that were not interested in the affairs of western Middle Earth, as it had no effect on them. As noted by many others throughout many posts of this nature, the Istari were restricted by the form in which they entered Middle Earth (Saruman least of all because of his disregard for 'good').

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

also, the likelihood of Saruman-corrupted by power-uniting with Gandalf...?

[O'Boile]

My favorite quote says it: "Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." -Gandalf

That does seem to sum it up right there. Good job RL zero.