The random ‘Questions about Tolkien’s early poetry and Unpublished Writing' thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

malickfan · 08-15-2013, 03:11 PM

Hi all, (rather random thread I know) I'm currently in the midst of a Tolkien reading marathon I recently read The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, and can safely say it was amongst Tolkien's best poems, stunning imagery and language as you'd expect, and an interesting break from middle earth-then I found out the poem hadn't been reprinted in English since 1945 so I was probably reading a copyright infringement…Anyway it got me thinking, was there ever a collection of Tolkien’s early/non middle earth poetry released along the lines of Tales from the Perilous Realm? (Does anyone here have an interest in such material?)- I seem to recall there was an edition of his Poems from LOTR, The Hobbit and TAOTB released in the 60's?, but nothing along these lines.

Although I'm aware Tolkien poetry is rather...divisive, there is no denying his poems were a massive influence and aspect of his writing and help set Tolkien apart from other writers, if such a volume was released it would certainly be interesting to see such a release marketed after the hype surrounding The Hobbit films (Obviously the Fall of Arthur and The Legend of Sigurd and Gurdun were poetic volumes, but I've seen more than a few comments on Amazon etc expressing surprise that they weren't middle earth related novels-don't people read the blurb??) if only for the convenience, and to showcase how diverse Tolkien's writing was to the ever increasing audience of his work.

Given how the long promised The Fall of Arthur finally saw a release this year, I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing such a volume or had any knowledge of these poems.

Judging by the following list there is a large amount of unpublished or rare poems by Professor Tolkien:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Categ...J.R.R._Tolkien

(For the record I'm a relative newbie to this site, and not at all what I'd call a Tolkien expert though I have read most of his books multiple times, and several ancillary works about Tolkien, so I don't know if these topics have been covered elsewhere, or is of interest to any other Barrowdowners, in which case I can only offer my apologies for leading a conversation to knowhere-I have a tendency to ramble. In any case I realise this is a pretty difficult/obscure thing to post about, so any pointers or thoughts would be much appreciated, but please don't feel obliged to reply if there is nothing to say. I do realise this probably reads as a fanboy demanding more books-that was not my intention, I’m simply bad at posting my ideas succinctly….especially for such an obscure enquiry)

I'm aware that many of these poems have been published at least partially in recent years (in Tolkien and The Great War, and The Annontated Hobbit for instance), but many I had never heard of, or at the most only seen extracts (One of the few issues I have with many otherwise excellent books on Tolkien is the references to otherwise unpublished or rare material-don't get me wrong I'm thankful to see such extracts, but it can be a little confusing remembering who and what, and annoying to know that's all we are likely to see, especially when Tolkien’s poetry has been viewed as a relatively niche area-and there’s what, half a dozen versions of Children of Hurin), and I was wondering whether anyone knew anything else about these poems, and why they remain un/re-published.

Given that many were written in the 20’s-40’s for other editors’ publications is it possible they aren’t covered by the Tolkien Estate’s copyright?

Admittedly there are probably very good reasons why The Tolkien Estate dosen't feel comfortable or able to re-release (or publish) such writing, (and it certainly isn't my place to queston why), the market for such a release might be rather small, and the amount of effort and legal obstacles in putting together such a release might be more trouble than its worth, but I personally would find such a collection an interesting idea (and in some respects a pretty bold one), and judging by the Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, a very rewarding one as a reader.

On another difficult, though related note (since most of the unpublished material is equally rather obscure) after getting a tad depressed at the thought of The Fall of Arthur being the last work we will see by Tolkien (I've yet to read it actually), I did a little more surfing on the old 'interweb' (as Peter Kay calls it), and to my surprise found there is a fair amount of the Professor's work yet to see publication (this doesn’t even include the 3000 odd pages of linguistic material being published in Vingwar Tengwar etc)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Index...ished_material

I was wondering what you guys and gals thought of this material? Would you be interested in seeing incomplete short stories or linguistic essays published? (For my part I’d love to see The End of Bovandium, the lecture on Dragons and his Translation of Bewolf see publication) Or would such material seem like a step to far?-there is afterall something to be said for leaving a few mysteries, and I guess in a way, publishing all of Tolkien’s material would be a bit intrusive.

On the other hand although I seem to remember reading the low sales of the books reportedly nixed an earlier expansion, in interviews Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull have indicated they are open to doing expanded editions of Artist and Illustrator and The Letters of JRR Tolkien, both of which seem to be amongst the most popular of the ancillary titles on Tolkien:

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...ristina-Scull-
Interview.php

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/...ristina-scull/

(I have seen on several other forums (sorry!) queries on expansions, and once again there does seem to be a large number of unpublished/ rare letters meriting a second edition):

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Lette....R._Tolkien%22

As a relative novice when it comes to Tolkien (unlike many others on this site), I'm not overly familiar with his published history or fanbase patterns, so I don't really know whether any of the material I have mentioned would warrant release or frankly be of interest, and as I said above I realise these are quite obscure questions, and arguably insensitive ones with no definite answers… in any case any thoughts or information on these enquiries would be much appreciated and I’m sure I’m not alone in wondering about these writings

(Apologies if that came off as confused ramblings I’ll be sure to keep my posts shorter in future).

08-15-2013, 03:11 PM	#1
malickfan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 19	The random ‘Questions about Tolkien’s early poetry and Unpublished Writing' thread Hi all, (rather random thread I know) I'm currently in the midst of a Tolkien reading marathon I recently read The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, and can safely say it was amongst Tolkien's best poems, stunning imagery and language as you'd expect, and an interesting break from middle earth-then I found out the poem hadn't been reprinted in English since 1945 so I was probably reading a copyright infringement…Anyway it got me thinking, was there ever a collection of Tolkien’s early/non middle earth poetry released along the lines of Tales from the Perilous Realm? (Does anyone here have an interest in such material?)- I seem to recall there was an edition of his Poems from LOTR, The Hobbit and TAOTB released in the 60's?, but nothing along these lines. Although I'm aware Tolkien poetry is rather...divisive, there is no denying his poems were a massive influence and aspect of his writing and help set Tolkien apart from other writers, if such a volume was released it would certainly be interesting to see such a release marketed after the hype surrounding The Hobbit films (Obviously the Fall of Arthur and The Legend of Sigurd and Gurdun were poetic volumes, but I've seen more than a few comments on Amazon etc expressing surprise that they weren't middle earth related novels-don't people read the blurb??) if only for the convenience, and to showcase how diverse Tolkien's writing was to the ever increasing audience of his work. Given how the long promised The Fall of Arthur finally saw a release this year, I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in seeing such a volume or had any knowledge of these poems. Judging by the following list there is a large amount of unpublished or rare poems by Professor Tolkien: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Categ...J.R.R._Tolkien (For the record I'm a relative newbie to this site, and not at all what I'd call a Tolkien expert though I have read most of his books multiple times, and several ancillary works about Tolkien, so I don't know if these topics have been covered elsewhere, or is of interest to any other Barrowdowners, in which case I can only offer my apologies for leading a conversation to knowhere-I have a tendency to ramble. In any case I realise this is a pretty difficult/obscure thing to post about, so any pointers or thoughts would be much appreciated, but please don't feel obliged to reply if there is nothing to say. I do realise this probably reads as a fanboy demanding more books-that was not my intention, I’m simply bad at posting my ideas succinctly….especially for such an obscure enquiry) I'm aware that many of these poems have been published at least partially in recent years (in Tolkien and The Great War, and The Annontated Hobbit for instance), but many I had never heard of, or at the most only seen extracts (One of the few issues I have with many otherwise excellent books on Tolkien is the references to otherwise unpublished or rare material-don't get me wrong I'm thankful to see such extracts, but it can be a little confusing remembering who and what, and annoying to know that's all we are likely to see, especially when Tolkien’s poetry has been viewed as a relatively niche area-and there’s what, half a dozen versions of Children of Hurin), and I was wondering whether anyone knew anything else about these poems, and why they remain un/re-published. Given that many were written in the 20’s-40’s for other editors’ publications is it possible they aren’t covered by the Tolkien Estate’s copyright? Admittedly there are probably very good reasons why The Tolkien Estate dosen't feel comfortable or able to re-release (or publish) such writing, (and it certainly isn't my place to queston why), the market for such a release might be rather small, and the amount of effort and legal obstacles in putting together such a release might be more trouble than its worth, but I personally would find such a collection an interesting idea (and in some respects a pretty bold one), and judging by the Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, a very rewarding one as a reader. On another difficult, though related note (since most of the unpublished material is equally rather obscure) after getting a tad depressed at the thought of The Fall of Arthur being the last work we will see by Tolkien (I've yet to read it actually), I did a little more surfing on the old 'interweb' (as Peter Kay calls it), and to my surprise found there is a fair amount of the Professor's work yet to see publication (this doesn’t even include the 3000 odd pages of linguistic material being published in Vingwar Tengwar etc) http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Index...ished_material I was wondering what you guys and gals thought of this material? Would you be interested in seeing incomplete short stories or linguistic essays published? (For my part I’d love to see The End of Bovandium, the lecture on Dragons and his Translation of Bewolf see publication) Or would such material seem like a step to far?-there is afterall something to be said for leaving a few mysteries, and I guess in a way, publishing all of Tolkien’s material would be a bit intrusive. On the other hand although I seem to remember reading the low sales of the books reportedly nixed an earlier expansion, in interviews Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull have indicated they are open to doing expanded editions of Artist and Illustrator and The Letters of JRR Tolkien, both of which seem to be amongst the most popular of the ancillary titles on Tolkien: http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...ristina-Scull- Interview.php http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/...ristina-scull/ (I have seen on several other forums (sorry!) queries on expansions, and once again there does seem to be a large number of unpublished/ rare letters meriting a second edition): http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Lette....R._Tolkien%22 As a relative novice when it comes to Tolkien (unlike many others on this site), I'm not overly familiar with his published history or fanbase patterns, so I don't really know whether any of the material I have mentioned would warrant release or frankly be of interest, and as I said above I realise these are quite obscure questions, and arguably insensitive ones with no definite answers… in any case any thoughts or information on these enquiries would be much appreciated and I’m sure I’m not alone in wondering about these writings (Apologies if that came off as confused ramblings I’ll be sure to keep my posts shorter in future).