Denethor's plunge

[Sauron the White]

First, I am sorry if I went to far in expressing my frustration at not being able to make my point.

Second, I was not expressing any hostility or anti-religious views - only attempting to show a comparison between the catch all the Catholic Church has to explain why they are right in matters of docctrine and why Tolkien purists are right. It is maddening at times.

Allow me to answer a specific point raised by Knight of Gondor. Sometimes I start typing a response when I should be rereading and soaking it up first. I guess the rule should be engage mind before fingers. I went back and read and reread your computations for running and times. Allow me to engage with you on that topic.

Okay, let's get mathematical about this. The average mortal human running speed is about 15 miles an hour. Faster runners can achieve faster speeds, but let's stay with 15 mph.

15 mph equals a four minute mile. No highly trained athlete runs a four minute mile for anything beyond a mile. Winning marathon times (26+miles) are always at about 5 minutes per mile or 12 mph. That is a difference in your calculations reducing them by 25%.

But again, we are not talking about your "average normal human". Not by a long stretch. We are talking about a highly trained superior athlete who has just run the equal of the Olympic Marathon making them the best in the world.

You want to use your "average normal human" - they cannot run one mile in ten minutes without training.

Discounting for the moment the need for sustenance and rests, running at the average 15 miles per hour, one could achieve 135 miles' distance in nine hours of solid running.

The world record for running 50 miles -just a bit more than the 45 miles per day we are using here - is four hours and 50 minutes. Please keep in mind two things when you think about that record. Running ultra marathons is a speciality, and extreme of an extreme that not even 1% of marathon runners attempt. Now we are taking the world record holder and we have the extreme of an extreme of an extreme. We are talking about the best long distance runner of all time. I will take a liberty here- and round that off to five hours. Even if a person were able to run that time for three straight days - the best distance runner in the history of the world would need 15 hours of time to run - not the 9 you calculate.

Obviously, mortal humans cannot keep up a constant speed of running. Let's say, for more than 15 minutes, or one quarter of an hour at a time. Multiplying nine hours by four, we can surmise that 36 intervals of 15 minutes at a time running at 15 miles an hour would achieve the same distance as 9 hours of solid running.

Many people here probably know tons more about the writings of JRRT than I could ever hope to do. I admit that. One thing I do know about is distance running. It is easier to run for a longer length of time in one sustained period than it is to run for a shorter distance - stop - rest- cool down - get up and run some more. The idea of running a long distance using this method is not really practical given the mechanics of muscles, how they work, how they cool down, and how fatigue begins to set in soon after. Your interval method is not the way long distances are run.

Now let us allot 72 hours (three days) and not count the extended "day four" period of time during which the Three Hunters meet Eomer. Multiplying 72 by 4, we find that there are a total of 288 quarter-hour periods in the span of three 24-hour days. Therefore, the Three Hunters need only have spent nine percent of their journeying time running at a constant speed of 15 miles an hour for fifteen minutes at a time.

The average person has difficulty running even an 8 minute pace. And that is giving them the benefit of the doubt that they could run a mile. An untrained person rarely can.

The Three Hunters did their ultra -marathon over a three day period in late February in a northern hemisphere climate. If you check sunrise and sunset tables you will find 12 hours of daylight available. Much is made in the books of travelling in daylight time. So they have 36 hours to run 145 miles or they must cover 4 miles every hours of every daylight hour available to them. They must cover 45 miles per day.

Running two-a-days is brutal and most runners reject it in favor of one longer run. Again, your interval method simply does not work for distance running. Nobody uses it. It contradicts basic anatomy and physiology.

The best you could hope to do would be two sessions of 22 miles each. Go and look up marathon times for the 26 mile race. When I used to run marathons my best time was 3:15 - thats a 7:30 mile for 26 straight miles. That put me in the top 15% of finishers out of nearly 4,000 trained runners. The average finishing time was over 9 minutes per mile. The Three Hunters were not trained marathon runners who could expect an average time of 9 minutes per mile. Even at that pace it would be only 5.5 miles covered in an hour. To get your 22 miles each of the Three Hunters would have to run for four straight hours. Then they could rest and have to do it all over again before the sunsets. Eight of the 12 hours available to them would be spent running at a 9 minute mile pace.

Here are some questions to consider about that run.

What is one their feet? The records and runners we are talking about are wearing highly developed running shoes of very light but durable material designed for one thing - running. The book describes two of our Three as wearing a type of heavy boot. Go and get a construction type workboot and try running in it for even a half mile. Again, this is not a matter of wil power, or motivation or desire. Its basic mechanics.

What is the terrain they are covering? Runners we are talking about run on solid and flat ground without holes or rocks or streams or anything that impedes their progress. Even through a winding city course, they run on a course that has been selected as runner friendly. Is that the terrain the Three Hunters were covering over their three days. I think not. It was much tougher in all respects. Whhat do you think that would do to both their times and increasing the wear and tear on their bodies?


There is not the space here - nor would anyone care to read it - if I attempted to explain the biomechanics of muscles and how they store and process glycogen to power them. It takes the average person nearly six months of training to properly prepare their muscles to store and use enough glycogen to run one race of 26 miles. And then most people can barely lift their feet the remainder of the day. Runners then take off several days or even weeks to recover. You cannot run a marathon a day - let alone over 1.6 marathons a day for three straight days.

To be merciful, we could cut the periods of running down to 10 minutes' time. The distance could then be achieved with 54 intervals running 15 miles an hour, or only about one-fifth of the alloted time of 72 hours.

To be further merciful (accounting for the time(s) of rest and sleep), let's only allot 60 hours. That's 240 periods of 15 minutes each running at 15 miles an hour for ten minutes at a time. Thus requiring only 23% of the time to be used to run.

As you can see the remainder of your calculations are way off. You do not have 60 hours but only 36 hours of daylight.... and perhaps a few hours of daylight on the morning of the fourth day. Maybe 40 hours. Your time available has been reduced by a full one-third. Your 15 minute interval period does not work. Your average speed given is wildly impractical. And you make no consideration at all for terrain and footwear. And as to the subject of muscles and glycogen, you did not even attempt to address that.

On the negative side, there were breaks to find tracks and breaks for rest and sustenance

How much time would that take away from you remaing four hours per day?

Funny thing is when I first read LOTR in 1971, I had never run long distances and the whole Three Hunters thing went by without a question from me. It worked and made sense. I started running in 1976 and marathons a year later. When I reread LOTR that chapter stood out like a sore thumb and it now borders on absurdity.