Tolkien lied! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mormegil · 10-26-2006, 10:18 PM

Okay, while this could go on the ‘Lord of the Bible’ thread I really feel that I want this to go a different direction than that thread was intended. In reading through part of the letter Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman that is found at the beginning of the Silmarillion (at least in my copy) it struck me at how emphatic Tolkien was in expressing that his work is not a Christian work. He said this here and elsewhere repeatedly. Also it is well known and documented that his work is not an allegory.

My question is: Did he lie?

He is so insistent that it is not a Christian work that it makes me wonder if he is trying to cover up his tracks, so to speak. This type of behavior is rather common among the guilty. They continue to talk about the behavior and are emphatic that this would never be them. How many proud people profess to being humble? When guilty, for whatever reason, people tend to deny the behavior with even great vehemence. I can see this in Tolkien’s work.

Being a religious person myself I can say that it is difficult to separate myself from the primary world when I go into the secondary world. I constantly draw comparisons and analogies. My thought processes and my whole being are, in great part, based upon my religious beliefs. It is safe to say that it is at the core of my being and removing wholly or entirely is virtually impossible. Now beliefs can slowly be changed or eroded over time, or there are radical changes in ones beliefs from time to time; such a changed occurred in me when I was 18. The problem as I see it is that Tolkien during his adult life never had such a drastic life change, so far as I am aware. So this means that his faith system was always with him and in my experience it’s not entirely possible to separate that with every day living and thinking. While I fully agree that he drew from northern myth and other sources intentionally I believe that he couldn’t help but include many parallels either intentionally or unintentionally but I believe he knew that they were there and didn’t want them there, however he couldn’t fully remove it either as it was at his core. He just wanted us to know that ‘it wasn’t there’ so don’t go looking for it.

Did he ‘lie’ intentionally or unintentionally? Did he even lie? Why would he be so adamant about not wanting this to be a Christian work? I’m realizing that it might be important to define what Tolkien meant by ‘Christian work’. I would like to know what you all think in this regard as it may change my opinion. I don’t mean that it’s a Christian document but rather a story with many Christian principles and parallels. The problem with that definition is that it’s fairly narrow minded to say Christian principles when there are many other religious systems that hold many similar principles. Anyway any clarification would be helpful.

10-26-2006, 10:18 PM	#1
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	Tolkien lied! Okay, while this could go on the ‘Lord of the Bible’ thread I really feel that I want this to go a different direction than that thread was intended. In reading through part of the letter Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman that is found at the beginning of the Silmarillion (at least in my copy) it struck me at how emphatic Tolkien was in expressing that his work is not a Christian work. He said this here and elsewhere repeatedly. Also it is well known and documented that his work is not an allegory. My question is: Did he lie? He is so insistent that it is not a Christian work that it makes me wonder if he is trying to cover up his tracks, so to speak. This type of behavior is rather common among the guilty. They continue to talk about the behavior and are emphatic that this would never be them. How many proud people profess to being humble? When guilty, for whatever reason, people tend to deny the behavior with even great vehemence. I can see this in Tolkien’s work. Being a religious person myself I can say that it is difficult to separate myself from the primary world when I go into the secondary world. I constantly draw comparisons and analogies. My thought processes and my whole being are, in great part, based upon my religious beliefs. It is safe to say that it is at the core of my being and removing wholly or entirely is virtually impossible. Now beliefs can slowly be changed or eroded over time, or there are radical changes in ones beliefs from time to time; such a changed occurred in me when I was 18. The problem as I see it is that Tolkien during his adult life never had such a drastic life change, so far as I am aware. So this means that his faith system was always with him and in my experience it’s not entirely possible to separate that with every day living and thinking. While I fully agree that he drew from northern myth and other sources intentionally I believe that he couldn’t help but include many parallels either intentionally or unintentionally but I believe he knew that they were there and didn’t want them there, however he couldn’t fully remove it either as it was at his core. He just wanted us to know that ‘it wasn’t there’ so don’t go looking for it. Did he ‘lie’ intentionally or unintentionally? Did he even lie? Why would he be so adamant about not wanting this to be a Christian work? I’m realizing that it might be important to define what Tolkien meant by ‘Christian work’. I would like to know what you all think in this regard as it may change my opinion. I don’t mean that it’s a Christian document but rather a story with many Christian principles and parallels. The problem with that definition is that it’s fairly narrow minded to say Christian principles when there are many other religious systems that hold many similar principles. Anyway any clarification would be helpful. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”