Don't do me like that

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Maria Tatar:"The real magic of the fairy tale lies in its ability to extract pleasure from pain," Tatar writes in the introduction to "The Annotated Classic Fairy Tales." It's this complex duality that fascinates her and, she says, that imbues fairy tales with powers therapeutic as well as entertaining."

Is that the real magic of the fairy tale? Not for me. For me it is, in Tolkien's phrase the glimpse they offer of something 'beyond the circles of the world'. Of course, the 'extracting pleasure from pain' thing is simply Tolkien's Eucatastrophe on a more mundane level.

Of course, we would *never* demean your personal experience of the fairy tale, davem, but perhaps it would be more meaningful in terms of discussion and debate for you to explain WHY "extractingly pleasure from pain" is "simply Tolkien's Eucatastrophre on a more mundane level". I personally think that such a statement ought to be clarified and developed, for the benefit of those who might not be able to leap tall buildings as you obviously can. Furthermore, I would have thought you would have found some sympathy with Tatar's statement:

Originally Posted by Maria Tatar

"And then, in the middle of the project, I discovered that I was forgetting about what I think my audience wanted: to really think about the magic and enchantment of the stories."

Isn't this somewhat akin to your notion of the experience of reading? What has she herself develped out of this EXPERIENCE of reading which lead her to ideas about the attraction of fairey? It seems to fit right in with your demands of "experience first, think about later."

Further to Tatar's concept of fairy tales helping children explore the angxieties of adulthood, does this idea relate to LotR? Tarar suggests that characters change their moral status: the beautiful woman turns out to be unspeakable cruel. Does this idea pertain to Tolkien? Would this explain the inconsistencies in Galadriel's character and the differences between Rivendell and Lothlorien, which we have discussed in other threads?

Tatar also makes a profound claim for fairy tales:

Originally Posted by Tatar

What fairy tales don't do, says Tatar, is provide tidy moral lessons for young learners.

Is this true? If not, then it is not especially relevant to a Tolkien board. If true, then what does this say about Tolkien? Was he writing a fairy tale that went against previous fairy, his own particular version of Fairy? If so, why? --NOTE: I am not saying he is wrong if he doesn't do this. I am suggesting we consider why this difference exists and what the difference might mean in terms of understanding his concept of fairy. Coupled with the absence of sex in LotR, and thus the absence of secrets about sex which Tatar believes--rightly or wrongly--exist in fairy--we might be lead on to a greater awareness of what constitutes Tolkien's Fairy.

My dear Fordim:

Originally Posted by Fordie

It would be so much easier if there were no Eowyn -- then I could say that Tolkien was clearly a sexist and didn't want or see the need for interesting women!

Perhaps Tolkien was venting more of his spleen against the French when he imagined an Eowyn who took up the behaviour of a St. Joan of Arc. In which case Eowyn owes more to the history and realistic novel traditions than to fairey.

Raynor, thank you for quoting those passages from Tolkien's letters. They have, in various forms, been quoted here in ages past in former arguements. While one may comment upon Tolkien's perceptions of women, by and of themselves how would they relate to Tolkien's depictions of women? Would you say that his personal understanding of woman, based as you say on culturally-determined standards, influenced his understanding of fairy?

Originally Posted by davem

'Aragorn & Arwen' contains important background for the story of LotR, but if the events in it were brought into the foreground (as Tolkien realised) they would detract from the central story - which is Frodo's, not Aragorn's.

See, I do recall several threads here and even discussions elsewhere concerning the question of to whom belongs the central story. After all, the book is not titled after Frodo. The ring's story? But perhaps fairy stories are morally ambiguous after all, and Tolkien's is far less so ...