frodo was both the weakest and strongest person in the Trilogy? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 05-29-2002, 01:58 PM

Littlemanpoet and Kalessin--

I actually typed a post on this earlier today and the phone connection went dead and wiped away my words. How ironic that this should happen in my response on this particular subject!

My reply was similar to, although not identical with that, of Littlemanpoet.

Let me begin by saying I have strong feelings about this. I spent years and years earning a doctorate in medieval history. I ate a lot of spaghetti and beans and lived in a single room. It is part of me I prize, even though I was only able to use it on the job market for a few years. At first jobs were incredibly tight, 300-500 people applying for each position (not an exaggeration, I assure you.) Then, I did teach at a college for a bit and later chose to earn a degree in librarianship to gain more flexibility.

Anyways, I would not have put myself through this unless I believed that history has an amazing amount to teach us. Yet the modern world, certainly contemporary education, sadly sees little to value from the past.

There is no question that people in past ages were limited by their assumptions and values. But so too are we limited by our perspectives. I am a child of the 60s and, even if I live to be 111, I will look at many things that way. Ironically, this precious gift opens up vistas for me, but is also a set of blinders that limits the angles from which I can view things.

Tolkien was no different. His mind seems to have been fixed on the era before World War I. Other authors born at that time may have felt part of the post-war generation, but not Tolkien. And this is why the Shire and the hobbits are so attuned to the Edwardian age, and the same goes for Sam and Frodo's relationship.

Often, the Edwardian Shire seems to have been dropped into a world which was essentially one of ancient northern myths. Hobbits, even more than men, don't quite fit in. This is very true in the Hobbit, but it even holds to a large degree for LotR. How else can you explain fish and chips, express trains, umbrellas, handkerchiefs, and fireworks?

The Shire is like a half-way land beween Faerie and reality, and helps people like us who stand outside in the modern age to again have access to the time of legends. After all, if the crotchety, Edwardian Bilbo can turn into a writer of Elvish poems and history, then I am certain we too can share in this world.

I think two of the themes that tie the Edwardian Shire into the lands and people of northern myth are precisely those you have identified--a belief in duty and a hierarchical structure. Both the Edwardian age and the ancient epics could come together in appreciation of these tenets. Our own world--well, that's another story that's not,I believe, directly relvant here.

The question is not whether Tolkien should have used these themes, but how well he used them. And I would say he used them very, very well indeed.

Now, I will admit there are limits to this process in my mind. If Tolkien had written a book which implicitly advocated slavery or genocide, for example, I would not have been sympathetic, however wonderful his writing. But this is not what he did. He has shown us a noble society with very different assumptions, but one which is strangely alluring. And interestingly, this is a world where different races preserve their cultures and get along relatively well. (The problems of dwarves and Elves are nothing when compared with what out age has done and is still doing in this regard!)

It is quite clear that I, who am a female from a working class background, could not have done in his world what I have managed to do in mine. But then I am also sure that people from Middle-earth might stare at my own universe and shake their head in disbelief, perhaps mourning how we have managed to destroy so much beauty and make our lives increasingly impersonal, or set up death camps for each other.

So my feeling about hierarchies is perhaps different than yours. And I would also argue that these hierarchies were a bit less "rigid" than you imply. The Tory in Tolkien left room for paternalism (which I know you don't like), and this did bring about some change. How else did Sam get his education from Bilbo? And I do believe that the relationship between Frodo and Sam had gone far beyond master/servant by the end of the story. There is too much genuine feeling here.

Yes, Middle-earth took on certain forms reflective of the age in which Tolkien lived, but I would argue that his characters are a great deal more than the sum of these parts.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

05-29-2002, 01:58 PM	#31
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Littlemanpoet and Kalessin-- I actually typed a post on this earlier today and the phone connection went dead and wiped away my words. How ironic that this should happen in my response on this particular subject! My reply was similar to, although not identical with that, of Littlemanpoet. Let me begin by saying I have strong feelings about this. I spent years and years earning a doctorate in medieval history. I ate a lot of spaghetti and beans and lived in a single room. It is part of me I prize, even though I was only able to use it on the job market for a few years. At first jobs were incredibly tight, 300-500 people applying for each position (not an exaggeration, I assure you.) Then, I did teach at a college for a bit and later chose to earn a degree in librarianship to gain more flexibility. Anyways, I would not have put myself through this unless I believed that history has an amazing amount to teach us. Yet the modern world, certainly contemporary education, sadly sees little to value from the past. There is no question that people in past ages were limited by their assumptions and values. But so too are we limited by our perspectives. I am a child of the 60s and, even if I live to be 111, I will look at many things that way. Ironically, this precious gift opens up vistas for me, but is also a set of blinders that limits the angles from which I can view things. Tolkien was no different. His mind seems to have been fixed on the era before World War I. Other authors born at that time may have felt part of the post-war generation, but not Tolkien. And this is why the Shire and the hobbits are so attuned to the Edwardian age, and the same goes for Sam and Frodo's relationship. Often, the Edwardian Shire seems to have been dropped into a world which was essentially one of ancient northern myths. Hobbits, even more than men, don't quite fit in. This is very true in the Hobbit, but it even holds to a large degree for LotR. How else can you explain fish and chips, express trains, umbrellas, handkerchiefs, and fireworks? The Shire is like a half-way land beween Faerie and reality, and helps people like us who stand outside in the modern age to again have access to the time of legends. After all, if the crotchety, Edwardian Bilbo can turn into a writer of Elvish poems and history, then I am certain we too can share in this world. I think two of the themes that tie the Edwardian Shire into the lands and people of northern myth are precisely those you have identified--a belief in duty and a hierarchical structure. Both the Edwardian age and the ancient epics could come together in appreciation of these tenets. Our own world--well, that's another story that's not,I believe, directly relvant here. The question is not whether Tolkien should have used these themes, but how well he used them. And I would say he used them very, very well indeed. Now, I will admit there are limits to this process in my mind. If Tolkien had written a book which implicitly advocated slavery or genocide, for example, I would not have been sympathetic, however wonderful his writing. But this is not what he did. He has shown us a noble society with very different assumptions, but one which is strangely alluring. And interestingly, this is a world where different races preserve their cultures and get along relatively well. (The problems of dwarves and Elves are nothing when compared with what out age has done and is still doing in this regard!) It is quite clear that I, who am a female from a working class background, could not have done in his world what I have managed to do in mine. But then I am also sure that people from Middle-earth might stare at my own universe and shake their head in disbelief, perhaps mourning how we have managed to destroy so much beauty and make our lives increasingly impersonal, or set up death camps for each other. So my feeling about hierarchies is perhaps different than yours. And I would also argue that these hierarchies were a bit less "rigid" than you imply. The Tory in Tolkien left room for paternalism (which I know you don't like), and this did bring about some change. How else did Sam get his education from Bilbo? And I do believe that the relationship between Frodo and Sam had gone far beyond master/servant by the end of the story. There is too much genuine feeling here. Yes, Middle-earth took on certain forms reflective of the age in which Tolkien lived, but I would argue that his characters are a great deal more than the sum of these parts. sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.