Who's the oldest?

[lathspell]

The possibility that Bombadil is highly unlikely. There were only 14 (for Mogoth was no longer counted among them) and all of them are 'in the West that is Forgotten'. It says in the Silmarillion that Ulmo was the last of the Valar to go. Nowhere it is said that one of them ever came back, so that rules out the possibility that he was Valar. Personally I find the possibility of Maiar far more believable.

Trees and Flowers? Do we take these into consideration as well? I always thought this was for intelligent beings. I saw above that it was quite agreed that Bombadil and other spirits and Ainur should be left out of this discussion. Than shouldn't this be for intelligent non-(possible) Ainur beings.

In that case I think Rimbaud has made a very good point about the foul things in the deep places of the World. I suddenly remembered good old Shelob [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. Does anyone know how old she is? I don't have the Silmarillion here, so I don't know when it was that she ran away from the Balrogs in Lammoth. Isn't it said as well that she had Children already when she lived in Avatar, before the attack on Valinor when the Trees were destroyed.

Is that is so, are they the oldest intelligent non-Ainur in Arda??

greetings,
lathspell