The Problem of Rog

[lindil]

This Thread was initially titled: Rog - canonical elvish or no? but was retitled upon realising the perfect name was waiting for it all along.]

So as not to clutter up the other threads...

There is of course no 'right or wrong' opinion here. Just preferences and more or less educated points of view. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As most here know, I see Rog as a the last major euphonically untenable element in the Q30, Most things like this did not survive the Lost Tales.

I base my position entirely on CJRT's 2nd footnote in HoM-E II p. 211{HB} CJRT says:

It is absolutely certain that my father would not have retained this name as a lord of Gondolin.

CJRT does not elaborate why, but I am not aware of any seriuos counter to the argument that it simply sounds like no other name of an elf in any dialect recorded in the LotR and on.

Now our principles formulated by Aiwendil and myself [with initial input from Jallanite], deliberatly left vague what to do about a Rog-like situation. It was in fact a sticking point which occupied Aiwendil and myself for quite some time.

We finally formulated the principles in such a way as to neccesitate a vote, or I suppose to force one side of the debate to muster overwhelming evidence [as evidenced by a clear majority voicing their opinion].

So here we are with Rog's name needing to be dedcided in order to know what our remaining options are in terms of his company, captainship, the fate of the Balrog etc...

The options I am aware of are:

• Rog's function/captaincy are retained but we state in a footnote'that his name was lost to the passing of so many elves into the west' or some similar literary device. I tend to favor this, as it addresses the problem squarely. It is his name alone that CJRT is 100% confident would not have survived a final revision.
  
• Polwe, I have heard this mentioned but have forgotten he source. Any help?
  
• The whole scene -with all of it's complexities [ Balrog[s] die or not, Rog there or not, with his name or not - is deleted or compressed to near nothingness.
  
• Rog is eliminated but his people of the 'hammer of wrath' do whatever is seemly for them to do.
  

A firther note to point #1 which I favor [assuming the other balrog issues do not prove so intractable as to leave little choice but to loose the entire scene],
CJRT is rarely if ever this confident in making an assertion, and I think the burden of proof needs to be on those who wish to retain the name. What argument can be made to set against his absolute conviction in the matter ?

I hope to provide a option 1 text later today after responding to the many other prior points that have been raised.

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ November 13, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]