Creating a new Silmarillion -- some ideas... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Michael Martinez · 09-14-2000, 10:02 PM

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When I first suggested that people try to work together to define a working canon for The Silmarillion, I foresaw there would be much disagreement. The methodology employed thus far has been, I think, too loose (but given that this is a new process, some evolution from a freeform discussion toward a more formal model of presentation must be expected).

Ultimately, all who participate in the project must become, for lack of a better phrase, "Silmarillion scholars". That is, you must define a fundamental set of ground rules by which your arguments, suggestions, and objections can be gauged according to the purpose of the project.

What constitutes a textual canon? It's the group of texts which are generally regarded to be authoritative. This project assumes that the published Silmarillion is not canonical. That is essentially axiomatic, an incontrovertible condition.

I think if you want to define a canon, you will need to follow a process very similar to that taken by J.R.R. Tolkien himself: write an outline that you all can agree upon.

"Quenta Silmarillion" is only a part of The Silmarillion. "Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta" are two separate parts. Each may, in itself, be adequate enough that you don't need to examine their structures or compatibility with other texts. Instead, they may serve as the foundation for establishing compatibility.

I think one of the problems you're all struggling with is that you are convinced Tolkien would have rewritten the entire cycle. That is not necessarily a given. He questioned the validity of the proposal late in his life. Why would Elves, who were long-lived and possessed of great memories, and whose "science" had been largely given to them by the beings who built the universe, believe "nonsense" such as the creation of the Sun and Moon from two leaves of dead trees?

Would these Elves have conveyed such a fantastic history to Men? Tolkien decided they would not have. So is The Silmarillion really an Elvish history? The answer is NO, it its NOT an Elvish history, although it purports to be. And there Tolkien stumbled. He couldn't reconcile his great love of the myths which had been the heart and soul of his mythology with the desire to create a plausible history for the Elves.

You have to choose between two evils: do you want to define a "Silmarillion" canon or do you want to construct the plausible history for the Elves? If the latter, then the project is really not about defining a "Silmarillion" canon. The two goals are nowhere near related. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The Silmarillion is the legendary cycle of stories which tell the history of the Elves who built a civilization capable of producing three exquisite jewels over which a long and terrible war was fought. That IS the purpose of the cycle. Its purpose is not to retell cosmic history. Its purpose is not to vindicate science. It began as a mythology and any attempt to redefine it as a scientifically plausible work of fiction would be comparable to taking the Greek or Norse myths and rewriting them to conform to the axioms of science.

If you want a "Silmarillion" canon, you must abandon these notions of trying to bring the origin stories into line with scientific thought. Tolkien would have destroyed the Silmarillion in his effort to make it more plausible. The story itself is a work of art, a piece of genius which illuminates the human experience. It doesn't need to be scientifically validated.

Return to the root and grow the plant anew. Tolkien started out with the intention of creating a mythology. He ended up with the half-expressed intention of replacing the mythology with science fiction. Would that have been any better than the original idea? Would it have moved the characters any closer to realism? Could Beren have become any more heroic, or Turin any more tragic, if the sun and moon under which they walked and loved and feared were billions of years older rather than hundreds?

A true canon for The Silmarillion must tell essentially the same story as the published one. That means the Sun and Moon are created by the grieving Valar only as Men are about to awaken. That means the Elves are taught to believe in a universe which gave light to a flat world sufficient enough to sustain the sleeping plants, and that the plants could still sustain the civilizations and creatures where the Elves and Dwarves lived.

Since J.R.R. Tolkien was unable to reconcile his vision with natural history, you will also be unable to do so.

I think this project should be more concerned over whether Balrogs should have wings, and whether Andreth should be a part of the cycle. Should Turin return with the Host of Valinor to help defeat Melkor?

These are far more relevant questions, and perhaps easier ones to answer, than the pursuit of a scientifically plausible "Silmarillion" canon.

http://www.xenite.org/Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy</a>
http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/Lord of the Rings Movie news</a>
http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml1500+ Hercules/Xena Links</a>
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09-14-2000, 10:02 PM	#1
Michael Martinez Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 48	Creating a new Silmarillion -- some ideas... <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> When I first suggested that people try to work together to define a working canon for The Silmarillion, I foresaw there would be much disagreement. The methodology employed thus far has been, I think, too loose (but given that this is a new process, some evolution from a freeform discussion toward a more formal model of presentation must be expected). Ultimately, all who participate in the project must become, for lack of a better phrase, "Silmarillion scholars". That is, you must define a fundamental set of ground rules by which your arguments, suggestions, and objections can be gauged according to the purpose of the project. What constitutes a textual canon? It's the group of texts which are generally regarded to be authoritative. This project assumes that the published Silmarillion is not canonical. That is essentially axiomatic, an incontrovertible condition. I think if you want to define a canon, you will need to follow a process very similar to that taken by J.R.R. Tolkien himself: write an outline that you all can agree upon. "Quenta Silmarillion" is only a part of The Silmarillion. "Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta" are two separate parts. Each may, in itself, be adequate enough that you don't need to examine their structures or compatibility with other texts. Instead, they may serve as the foundation for establishing compatibility. I think one of the problems you're all struggling with is that you are convinced Tolkien would have rewritten the entire cycle. That is not necessarily a given. He questioned the validity of the proposal late in his life. Why would Elves, who were long-lived and possessed of great memories, and whose "science" had been largely given to them by the beings who built the universe, believe "nonsense" such as the creation of the Sun and Moon from two leaves of dead trees? Would these Elves have conveyed such a fantastic history to Men? Tolkien decided they would not have. So is The Silmarillion really an Elvish history? The answer is NO, it its NOT an Elvish history, although it purports to be. And there Tolkien stumbled. He couldn't reconcile his great love of the myths which had been the heart and soul of his mythology with the desire to create a plausible history for the Elves. You have to choose between two evils: do you want to define a "Silmarillion" canon or do you want to construct the plausible history for the Elves? If the latter, then the project is really not about defining a "Silmarillion" canon. The two goals are nowhere near related. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Silmarillion is the legendary cycle of stories which tell the history of the Elves who built a civilization capable of producing three exquisite jewels over which a long and terrible war was fought. That IS the purpose of the cycle. Its purpose is not to retell cosmic history. Its purpose is not to vindicate science. It began as a mythology and any attempt to redefine it as a scientifically plausible work of fiction would be comparable to taking the Greek or Norse myths and rewriting them to conform to the axioms of science. If you want a "Silmarillion" canon, you must abandon these notions of trying to bring the origin stories into line with scientific thought. Tolkien would have destroyed the Silmarillion in his effort to make it more plausible. The story itself is a work of art, a piece of genius which illuminates the human experience. It doesn't need to be scientifically validated. Return to the root and grow the plant anew. Tolkien started out with the intention of creating a mythology. He ended up with the half-expressed intention of replacing the mythology with science fiction. Would that have been any better than the original idea? Would it have moved the characters any closer to realism? Could Beren have become any more heroic, or Turin any more tragic, if the sun and moon under which they walked and loved and feared were billions of years older rather than hundreds? A true canon for The Silmarillion must tell essentially the same story as the published one. That means the Sun and Moon are created by the grieving Valar only as Men are about to awaken. That means the Elves are taught to believe in a universe which gave light to a flat world sufficient enough to sustain the sleeping plants, and that the plants could still sustain the civilizations and creatures where the Elves and Dwarves lived. Since J.R.R. Tolkien was unable to reconcile his vision with natural history, you will also be unable to do so. I think this project should be more concerned over whether Balrogs should have wings, and whether Andreth should be a part of the cycle. Should Turin return with the Host of Valinor to help defeat Melkor? These are far more relevant questions, and perhaps easier ones to answer, than the pursuit of a scientifically plausible "Silmarillion" canon. http://www.xenite.org/Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy</a> http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/Lord of the Rings Movie news</a> http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml1500+ Hercules/Xena Links</a> </p>