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Old 10-16-2003, 04:01 AM   #16
Eurytus
Wight
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: England
Posts: 179
Eurytus has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I am afraid that in addition to all the other things you are wrong about you are also wrong in this;

Quote:
No, this wasn't his "surface" reason or anything.
It was his surface reason which was why as he progressed towards the Black Gate he had his heralds proclaim that the King had come to reclaim his kingdom and Sauron's forces should leave. That is delivering a message.

Liked the way you ignored my Rudolf Hess example though....

Quote:
When did Khamul stop ruling Dol Guldur? It's totally not irrelevant. If Sauron trusted the Mouth as he trusted Khamul or the Witch-King and made him second in command, would he not have him further away ruling a fortress he wasn't physically present at? It is also relevant because Khamul is called "Sauron's lt." even though it is clear that the Witch-King outranks him - this is a clear indication that the title of "lieutenant" does not mean that he (or anyone referred to as such) is second in command, nor is there only one lieutenant.
How wrong is the above? Answer, very wrong.
You like to keep harping on about Khamul being the lieutenant of Dol Guldur despite the fact that this situation was before the events in LOTR occurred and it is not possible to command a fortress when you are not even there.

As much as you play the semantics card neither you or Gwahir have dealt with the following points;

1. It is stated in the text that the Mouth is to be Sauron's lieutenant in Isengard and nowhere refuted.

2. None of the Nazgul other than the Witchking command armies and Tolkien expressly stated in one of his letters on the subject that the Nazgul are unable to function without Sauron's will and have no initiative. Not ideal commanders then.

3. A creature which inspires absolute terror in mortal men, which causes them to flee, is not going to be the best candidate to control tribute kingdoms. The tribute kingdoms would presumably pay taxes etc to Sauron and to control this you need to be able to meet with their representatives. Something that the Nazgul would be unable to do.

My first two points are those stated by Tolkien himself and the latter is sheer common sense.
What Khamul did before LOTR is of no account.
Whether the Witchking ranked higher than Khamul is of no account. He's dead.

But good luck in trying to argue against Tolkien's own writing guys.
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