Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Bêthberry]

Bah humbug, lmp.

Courtly love is wrong because it is not wholly theocentric and diverts

Originally Posted by Tolkien

"the young man's eyes off women as they are, as companions in shipwreck not guiding stars. . . . It inculcates exaggerated notions of 'true love', as a fire from without, a permanent exaltation, unrelated to age, childbearing, and plain life, and unrelated to will and purpose.. . . Women really have not much part in all this, though they may use the language of romantic love, since it is so entwined in all our idioms. The sexual impulse makes women (naturally when unspoiled more unselfish) very sympathetic and understanding, or specially desirous of being so (or seeming so),...the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. . . . Before the young woman knows where she is (and while the romantic young man, when he exists, is still sighing), she may actually 'fall in love'. Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man's children, even if that desire is by no means clear to her or explicit. . . . You may meet in life (as in literature) women who are flighty, or even plain wanton--I don't refer to mere flirtatiousness, the sparring practice for the real combat, but to women who are too silly to take even love seriously, or are actually so depraved as to enjoy 'conquests' or even enjoy the giving of pain--but these are abnormalities. . . . Unless perverted by bad contemporary fashions they do not as rule talk 'bawdy'; not because they rae purer than men (they are not) but because they don't find it funny. I have known those who pretended to, but it is a pretence. It may be intriguing, interesting, absorbingh (even a great deal to absorbing) to them: but it is just p lumb natural, a serious, obvious interest; where is the joke? ... But they are instinctively, when uncorrupt, monogamous... Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes: in the sense that almost certainly (in a more perfect world) or even with a little more care in this very imperfect one), both partners might have foundmore suitable mates.. . . "

Well, I suppose that is covered by lmp's "decidedly man-centric" comment, but isn't it much more interesting to see just how Tolkien thinks a young woman ought to behave? Of course, this is just a letter, and so I suppose it is less canonical than LotR, which doesn't really say anything about Arwen's desires for Aragorn, or Galadariel's for Gimli's or Celeborn's, or Rosie's for Sam...

It is such a tangled web, trying to figure out what is a proper attitude to display in young women characters in RPGs. Actually, Jenny, there are several threads here on the Downs which do discuss the possibility of those very trysts you are alluding to. It is possible that elves 'get away with it'... in the fine print of Luthien and Beren, to which of course Tolkien alluded in his gravestone, a choice he made both for himself and Edith. My letter omits his comments on his and her relationship.