The Origin of Trolls

I would first like to introduce myself to the forums. I have enjoyed Tolkien for several years now, and I hope that my presence here would enrich the atmosphere. I have been reading the forum (without posting) for about a year now, and have recently decided to join, in hopes that the erudite atmosphere outlined in the sticky post will be realized. I will, of course, try my best to create such an atmosphere. Also, I would like to disclaim that I know that this theory has been posted elsewhere (one other Tolkien discussion site, to be exact). However, the theories were posted on that site and written by ME, with the help of some of my colleagues. As such, please do not accuse me of plagiarism, for the essays written on the previous site were in fact my work. I am reposting them here, with some revision. This is all my original work, and I am posting it here in hopes of reaching a conclusion, for I have hit a proverbial ‘road block’. If you read the original theories on the other site, you will notice that I have retained the same name of ‘Bilbo’. I know my post is long, but I will be indebted if you could read it, and hopefully contribute. I hope that this thread will not be a place for pat answers and simply ‘I agree’, but would tend towards more well thought-out observations. I must, of course, thank those who facilitated my though, which you will shortly read. I offer my thank-you's to Valithon, Endilion, and mastercharles, without whom these theories would have never reached the level at which you see them.

Second, before reading farther into my post, one must look at the sources that are used in supporting and contradicting the theorum. The four sources used by myself are The Lord of The Rings, Morgoth’s Ring, The Appendices of the Lord of The Rings, and The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Each of these should be taken into account at a separate level; some sources are ’more correct’ than the others, and thus should be treated that way. Some of the texts should have more sway in the arguement. The order in which I think that the texts should be considered in imprtance (from the greatest to the least) is: The Lord of the Rings, The Appendices of Lord of the Rings, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and finally Morgoth’s Ring. To reiterate, the source of each quote should be taken into account when considering which theory is ’more correct.’ And now the theories:

The original theory proposed that the Trolls were not corrupted Ents, nor were they even made by Melkor. This theory argued that Trolls are a group of beings, or beasts, originally created by Eru, which had been brought to the will of Sauron, and thus used by him. There are two different quotes supporting this view. The first one if from Lord of the Rings Appendices:

"In the beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But, Sauron made use of them, and teaching them what little they could learn, ... Trolls therefore took language as they could master from the orcs; and in the westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech."

It was argued how the Trolls had been present in Middle Earth since far back in the Elder Days, and therefore could be neither corrupted Ents nor mockeries of Ents. It’s been argued how they could not be corrupted Ents, for Melkor would not have the Ents to corrupt, as they have yet to come into a position of prominence and intelligence. Also, he stated that they cannot be in mockery of Ents, because firstly, they appeared very early in the history of Middle Earth, and thus Melkor could not have enough time to make such mockeries. Also, it has been mentioned that the trolls were originally probably simply beasts, and therefore were bent by the will of Sauron to there evil tendencies. So the theory was essentially because of the time period in which Trolls were first developed, it would be impossible for them to be either corruptions or mockeries, and therefore must have been beasts created by Eru (for they possessed free will), that had been turned to evil by the power of Sauron.

In support of this theory, I have found this quote in Morgoth’s Ring:

"It seens clearly implied in Lord of the Rings that Trolls existed in their own right, but were ’tinkered’ with by Melkor."

This quote clearly supports this proposed theory, except in one point. It states that Trolls were not created by Melkor, nor were they corrupted from Ents. It states that Trolls existed as a rational creature, but at a later time had been ’tinkered with’ and brought into there current state. The only point which this contradicts the original theory is who actually did this tinkering. In the original theory, Sauron was the proposed tinkerer, because he is the one that increased the wickedness of the original Trolls, and also taught them language and the like. However, in this quote it is made explicitly clear that Melkor was the original tinkerer, and that Sauron may have only dealt with them after the initial sway to the will of Morgoth, furthering upon that which his master has started.
I know that you are saying to yourself that this theory has to be correct now, as there is irrevocable textual evidence. However, there is much more to the debate. Tolkien clearly states how the orcs had been created. The process, as per Tolkien, used by Melkor is that he captured elves near the time of there awakening at Cuivienan, and through long ages of torture and misery, orcs were produced, shades of their former elven selves. Thus, the orcs can be considered to be corrupted elves.

Theory Number Two: originally argued that Ents had undergone the same process; they had experienced long years of torture, and thus produced Trolls. This theory was quickly discarded, perhaps too quickly. Tolkien writes, about five pages later, also in Morgoth’s Ring:
"
The elves would have classed the creatures called Trolls (in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings) as orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slowed. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types."

I myself had thought the conundrum of the origin of the Trolls solved with the quote provided by myself, but here is another twist thrown into the mix. Here, it states that Trolls were actually corruptions. As you know, the orcs originated from elves, being corruptions of the later. This quote proposes that the Trolls were "as orcs -- in character and origin". Therefore, it would seem that the Trolls had to have been produced the same way as orcs - through the process of corruption. Although this quote claims that they were corruptions of primitive human types, they are nonetheless corruptions. Once again, we have irrefutable evidence that Trolls were created through a different process, this time being corruption.

Theory Number Three: And lastly, we have the theory that has proposed thirdly. This states that Trolls were created by Morgoth, using his subcreationary powers, in mockery of Ents. They are not physically Ents, but rather created as a rebuttal to them. To support this, I have not been able to produce any new text, except for that found in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. In Letter 153, it is stated that
"I am not sure about trolls, I think they are mere ’counterfeits’..." and also "... ’made’ them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing." Also, in The Lord of the Rings, Treebeard states how the Trolls are made in mockery of the Ents.

Both of these statements claim that the Trolls were made in mockery of the other creatures, more than likely being Ents. He also states that they were made, not corrupted, and thus are in clear contradicition with the other theorum. The Trolls are referred to as being counterfeits. To be a counterfeit, one cannot be the original thing. Therefore, the Trolls had to have been created by Melkor -- not corrupted by Melkor, but rather created by him, using other creatures as a model. The Trolls have not been bent to Morgoth’s will but created by him and also in service to him. For a third time, we have another theory which is supported by explicit textual evidence, and also in complete contradiction to the other two.

Here are three perfectly plausible theories. Each has textual evidence which greatly supports each of the theorum. Endilion’s theory of Trolls being pre-existing creatures brought to the will of Morgoth is supported by textual evidence from the Appendices of the Lord of the the Rings and from Morgoth’s ring. The theory of Trolls being corrupted Ents or other creatures is supported through evidence from only Morgoth’s Ring. The final theory of Trolls being made by Morgoth using his sub-creationary powers is supported by textual extracts from The Lord of the Rings and The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. It seems that we have quite the conundrum; each theory has irrevocable textual evidence, makes sense, and seems to be correct. However, to attempt to shed some light on this conundrum, I present another theory. I will start with this extract from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien:

"But there are other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls for which other origins are suggested."

This seems to suggest that there are other different forms of Trolls. The breeds of Trolls that are prevalent in Tolkien’s writings, and whose names also are made available in his texts are the Stone-trolls and the Olog-Hai. However, this quote suggests that there are other forms of Trolls other than those whose named we are not given; different ’breeds’ so to speak, different from there fellow Trolls, but enough alike them to be considered to be Trolls.

Also, this quote presents another point: that all of these different breeds of Trolls may have had different origins. Not all of those creatures classified as being Trolls have been created through the same method. Therefore, each different breed of Troll could have been created in a different way, and although they are technically separate creatures, they are all classified as being Trolls. For example, some of those beings classified as being Trolls may have been made in mockery of and as a rebuttle to Ents by Melkor (as the third theory suggested), and thus had been less intelligent, and therefore different from there brethren. Another breed of Trolls could have been created through the method which originally was proposed - creatures originally created by Eru, but bent to the will of Melkor through his deceit and powers, much like the Balrogs. Also, some trolls may have been corrupted Ents, or as the quote in support of the second theory suggests, corrupted primitive men, and thus had been different breeds of Trolls, but Trolls nonetheless. So, as you can see, each of these theories may be correct, for each one has textual evidence, and here is presented the idea of different breeds of Trolls of whom different origins are suggested. So, although one theory cannot be applied to the origin of all the Trolls, each theory can perhaps be applied to a different breed of Trolls, who, although different, are still all considered to be Trolls. So, in conclusion, maybe all of the textually proven methods of the creation of Trolls had been used, each one producing a different breed of Trolls, but all nonetheless Trolls.

Alas, it is not as simple as the multiple origin theory originally proposed. To assume so would be folly, so I continued delving into my books, whereas I came across this quote in ‘The Treason of Isengard’.

"Difference between trolls--stone inhabited by goblin-spirit, stone-giants, and the ’tree-folk’ "

This quote provided a very interesting twist, and I find that it fits in best with both the theories Two and Three. It seems to tie the two separate theorums together in a fairly logical way of which I had yet to percieve.

Theories two and three seem to contradict each other to a very large extent. One argues that Trolls are counterfeits; therefore, they must have been made, fabricated, so to speak, presumably by Melkor. Theory three, however, argues that Trolls were like orcs, in both character and origin, and therefore must be corruptions of creatures pre-existing with a violent and malevolent spirit and personality. How would it be possible for one to be both theories simultaneously, both fabricated and pre-existing, created yet corruptions?

I find that there is a (semi) simple answer to this question: Trolls are counterfeits in the sense that their outer forms were created, but were corruptions because their spirit is that of orcs and goblins, whom, as we all presumably know, are derivative of men (see paragraph about 6 down), and are therefore corruptions.

In theory number two, it is argued that Melkor created the trolls for they are referred to as counterfeits. However, because of the new quote brought to my attention, I have altered my thinking. Melkor may have only created the outer raiment of the Trolls, for they are described as "stone inhabited by "something else, in this case the spirits of Goblins. My new thought on the topic is that the Trolls are, in Letter 153, referred to as being counterfeits simply because Melkor had created their outer form. Melkor may not have created the spirit of the Trolls, but he did create their outer stone form, and thus they can be classified as counterfeits, for they were fabricated. This also conforms perfectly with the quote from the Silmarillion, in which Melkors sub-creationary powers were clearly defined as not being capable of creating sentient beings. Technically, if he only created their outer forms, he was not creating life, and therefore was capable of doing so. Also, they are still counterfeits, because Melkor did create them, but only their outer forms.

The spirit of the Troll, however, may have been where the corruptionary idea fits in. Tolkien states in Morgoth’s Ring that Trolls are like orcs, in character and origin, and therefore must be corruptions. In the quote that you provided, they are "stone inhabited by goblin-spirit." Therefore, I am assuming that they are referred to as being corruptions only in regard to their spirit that inhabits them. Their spirit is indeed a corruption, for it is deriviative of orcs, who are the corruptionary forms of elves. And, also because the Trolls spirit are like that of orcs, then they would naturally be like them in origin. Therefore, is it not presumable that the Trolls are corruptions in the sense that their spirit was created from other, more benevolent beings? (the combined corruption / counterfeit theory will, for ease of use, be referred to as 'Theory Number Four')

Of course, we need to decide how it would be possible to go about in displacing the souls of the orcs into that of a Troll, as is presented in Theory Four. Do orcs have souls, and if so, would it be possible for Morgoth to successfully embody these souls into a Troll? Once again, I believe Morgoth’s Ring holds the answer to this question:

“…But always among them [the orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes.”

And also:

“Melkor had corrupted many spirits – some as great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs, the least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) orcs.”

Here we are given the theory that some of the orcs, the captains among them, were lesser spirits, who had presumably entered the world in the Elder Days. These spirits, being naturally bodiless, could have been the material in which the outer shells of the Trolls created through Theory Four could have been empowered. They were orcs, in the sense that that was their original form, but when the need arose, and the outer forms of the Trolls had been made ready, these lesser spirits could have given up their orcish forms in favor of the Trolls. Thus, it is possible that this was the way in which the Trolls were embodied with orcish sprits: the fact that some orcs were in fact lesser Maia, and could thus be displaced into the Trolls outer raiment.

So, I believe that theory number three regards only the Troll’s spirit as being corruptions, for they are here referred to as containing the spirit of goblins. Theory number two, which argues the Trolls as being counterfeits, is only referring to the outer rainment of the Trolls, which, being stone, was presumably created by Melkor. Therefore, it can be assumed that both were used simultaneously to create Trolls - they were counterfeits because their bodies were fabricated, and corruptions because their spirits were impure versions of another being.

Of course, we are still not conforming to the ‘primitive human’ theory presented. It has been argued over the prospect of Trolls being capable of being corrupted primitive humans. The prospect was proposed that Trolls, as is the opinion of the elves, were derived from corrupted primitive human types. This is the only quote presented in its support:

"The elves would have classed the creatures called Trolls (in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings) as orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slowed. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types."

Although none of us fully believed that particular theory to be correct, it was nonetheless one of the possibilities, and there has been no textual evidence, other the debatable quote from Morgoth’s Ring, to sway the favor one way or the other. However, while recently perusing through Morgoth’s Ring, being the eleventh book in the History of Middle Earth series, I have come across these rather interesting quote:

"...it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them were plainly, and biologically, corruptions of elves (and probably later also of Men)”

Later in the same section, although it is a later essay, Tolkien goes on to write:

“The theory of the origin of the orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though men may take comfort in this, the theory remains [of orcs being derived of men] the most probable. It accords with all that is known if Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of orcs – and of men.”

Although it is not made incredibly and exceptionally clear, it would seem that when corrupted, the human types become orcs. It has been previously concluded that one breed of Trolls is descended from the outer-shell / embodiment theory. The creatures which it has been concluded that the Trolls must be animated with (because one must conform with the ‘corruption’ idea), were orcs. While it is more likely that many were maia in orc form, is it not possible to say that Melkor could have used normal ‘run of the mill’ orc spirits? It certainly does not reach out of the scope of his creationary powers. Because some Trolls are said to be derivatives of ‘primitive human types’, it can be concluded that these types are orc-spirits (stone inhabited by goblin-spirit), with the orc-sprits derived from men. Hence, we are satisfying another quote.

I still do believe in the multiple origins of Trolls, because I can see no way in which the combined theories of two-three can fit in with that of theory one. My new take on the topic is this - the first Trolls were those primitive beings bent to the will of Morgoth, while the later Trolls are those corruption/counterfeits whom were created by Melkor and filled with the spirits of orcs (maia and corrupted men).

We are now left with two varying theories as to the multiple origins of Trolls: Theory number one argues that Trolls were a primitive stone race, primtive Ents, or primitve human types, created originally by Eru, who were enslaved by Morgoth and bent to his will. Theory number four, which accounts for the other origin of Trolls (for there are multiple) refers to the Trolls as being corruptions and counterfeits, in the sense that their outer bodies were created, and their spirit, being that of orcs, was corrupted.

You ask, however, what primitive creature, (this idea of primitive creatures being mentioned in theory number one) was used to breed that ’species’ of Trolls. There have been three suggestions proposed: ents or a primitive stone race.

I find that a definitive answer to the exact species that these first breeds of Trolls is derivative from to be nigh impossible to reach. At this point, we are speculating on speculation. Nothing, as of yet, has been totally and fully proven. The answer reached is probably the most comprehensive, but it is still speculation based on a limited amount of textual material. Yes, it is probably the most likely answer (Theories 1 and 4), but it is still not the correct answer, for that is unobtainable, as Tolkien has now passed away. However, I will do my best to try and figure out which one is more likely to have been the case. So far, we have found the two most likely origins of Trolls, but what of the original creature from which the Trolls of theory one have been derived?

We are presented with two ideas - that Trolls were either primitive Ents drawn to the will of Morgoth, or a primitive stone creature which had been bent to serve Morgoth. Before I express my thoughts on the topic, I will address your second question (which method created which Troll). Although it may now seem like I am rambling and jumping from topic to topic, rest assured, it will tie together at the end.

You asked whether all of the types of Trolls - the Stone Trolls, Hill Trolls, Cave Trolls, Mountain Trolls, Snow Trolls, etc., are all from different origins, for they are all called differently, or rather Trolls from the same origin, but which have adapted to suit their environment.

Often, people ask ’What is in a name?’. In this case, I believe there is very much within the names of the Trolls. All the Trolls are named for the place which they inhabit: The Mountain Trolls are named so because they originate from the mountains, Hill Trolls originate from the hills, Cave Trolls from the caves, Snow Trolls from the from the cold climates. However, there is one breed of Troll which is not named for their location. This is the Stone Trolls. This breed of Trolls are the only which have not been named for their location of origin. They seem to be ’different’ than all the other Trolls, kind of the oddball of the group. They are already set away from the rest of the breeds of Trolls.

Tolkien writes, in Leter 153, "but there are other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls for which other origins are suggested."

This states that there are other sorts of Trolls, rather than the Stone Trolls, who have different origins. Either way this is interpreted, it still sets the Stone Trolls away from the other types, like the Mountain, Hill, or Cave Trolls. It states, depending on which way you interpret the quote, that either there are other types of Trolls which have separate origins than Stone Trolls, or that the Stone Trolls have origins which differentiate from the of the "other sorts of Trolls". Either way you look at it, the Stone Trolls are once again separated from the other breeds of Trolls. They are set off from the group, seemingly different than all the others.

In Letter 153, it states that Stone Trolls have a different origin than all the other Trolls. Since there are now only two theories which have been accepted as of yet, is it not correct to state that the Stone Trolls, which have been obviously been set away from all other kinds, have originated in one way, while all the other Trolls originated in another? For, if the Stone Trolls originated in a different way than all other breeds of Trolls originated, and there are only two theories which are applicable (Theories 1 and 4), than it would seem that the only possible way this is capable of occurring is that Stone Trolls occupied one of these theories (for it has been stated that they have originated differently), leaving the other theory left over for all other Trolls to have originated from.

So, my take on this is that Stone Trolls originated in their own way (either theory one or four), while all other breeds originated in the other way (whichever theory the Stone Trolls have not occupied), and the other breeds developed from that original breed, ultimately becoming slightly different breeds because of differentiating environments, but still having originated differently. This also explains the discrepancy of the names, as all the similiar-originated Trolls are named for their environments, while the Stone Trolls, which had to have originated differently (see Letter 153), have not.

To put it simply, Stone Trolls originated one way, and all other Trolls originated the other, and these other Trolls developed from there into the separate species.

However, this leads to a new conundrum. Which theory is applicable to which? Have the Stone Trolls originated using theory one, and the other Trolls originated using theory four? Or, have the Stone Trolls originated through the methods described in theory four, and the other breeds through the methods described in theory one?

Before each theory is applied to the distinct breed of Trolls (comprised of Stone Trolls versus all other breeds), your question regarding from what creature the Trolls in theory one are cannot be answered. For, if theory one is applicable to Stone Trolls, than the primitive stone creatures are more likely, for Stone Trolls are obviously stone, and therefore are not primitive Ents, for Ents are not stone. However, if theory one is applied to all other breeds, who are not explicitly stated as being stone (only Stone Trolls are said to return to the stuffs of the mountain), than they can be either primitive Ents or primitve stone creatures, for they are not limited by the material from which they were made, like the Stone Trolls.

I know that I stated that my rambling will tie together at the end, but unfortunately, it did not, and left us with more questions than when we first started. We are left with one seemingly unapproachable question:

Which process created which Troll?

This question has plagued me for some time now. I am unable to come up with any textually supported answer, but I believe that there are several clues as to which Troll was created through which processes. The method which I think most likely is that the Stone Trolls were created through the process described in Theory Four, an outer raiment created by Morgoth and filled with spirits of lesser maia who were formerly captains amongst orcs, while all the other Trolls (such as the Snow and Cave Trolls) were creatures created by Eru and later bent to the will of Morgoth. My reasoning is this: Melkor’s subcreationary powers were not of the highest capability. Certainly the creationary powers of Eru would be much greater than that of Melkor. Therefore, it would only be logical for Melkor to have created the more flawed Trolls, while Eru created the less flawed Trolls. The Trolls which were more flawed were the Stone Trolls, susceptible to the sunlight. The less flawed Trolls were those who were (debatably) not subject to the same sunlight-incompatibility of the Stone Trolls. Therefore, it would seem logical that the less flawed Snow, Cave, and Mountain Trolls were created by Eru, and therefore Theory Number One is applicable, in which Trolls are a pre-existing race bent to the will of Morgoth. Subsequently, Melkor would have created the more-flawed Stone Trolls, thus Theory Number Four, in which he created the outer form of the Trolls and filled them with lesser maia-spirits is applicable.

I would love to hear you thoughts on my ramblings about Trolls, and I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed writing it!

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Bilbo ]