Morgoth's Return

[Iarwain]

I was just pondering what the contents of the next book would have been. I imagine it would contain Morgoth with an enourmous army returning to Middle Earth, the Valar crossing returning ME for the last time, and all of the Hobbits, Men, and all of the other inhabitants of ME caught in the mix of the final battle of Arda. Something would have to be related to one of either Aragorn's or Eleanor's decendants. It would be truely amazing. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

What does everyone else think?

[Galorme]

I would have to say no. I am very sorry, but that age is over. Tolkien realised that. When he finished LoTR he realised that evil would never again take that kind of form. The book (the Return of the Shadow I believe) that he began to write next was all in all a much darker affair. There were no long orcs, but Orc cults, and the evil comes from men, where they abuse their free will. Because with the fall of Sauron men are free. And any story set in ME after LoTR is not going to be about Morgoth, or big armies of elves. If you want to read the kind of evil that comes post-elvish, go and read a book on the holocaust.

But then again maybe there is going to be one final ending. Maybe Morgoth will return at the very end, the End of time when the elves are nearing the end of their lifespans. Maybe there will be a Great War. But i have a horrible thought i know which side we will be on. But you never know.

[Diamond18]

For me Middle-earth ends with the departure of Legolas and Gimli, the last members of the Fellowship to leave Middle-earth. I really would not like to think about "the final battle".

I absolutely hated C.S. Lewis's "The Last Battle", that told of the end of Narnia. I imagine that I would have an even stronger reaction to anything that told of the end of Middle-earth.

[Iarwain]

Don't be bitter galorme, he wasn't completely writing it as a prehistory to reality. Thus, you needn't limit your thoughts about ME to the real world. He even talks in Unfinished Tales about Dagor Dagorath, the final battle. p395 "Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns." HA!!!

[Iarwain]

sorry, diamond, forgot to respond to you. All i have to say is that i thought Lewis' Last Battle was a triumphant conclusion to Narnia, and (other than the first two or three chapters, i HATED puzzle and that ape) it was an excellent book.

[Galorme]

Sorry I just got beaten up in the street a few days ago for my mobile and can see very much where Melkor is now. Walk the streets of Tooting at night to see that Morgoth Baglir is still very much alive. I know which side I will be on come the Dagor Dagorath.

[Iarwain]

oh, don't be hard headed. Quick question. which books have you read? oh, and where did you come up with your Middle earth in the real world theology?

[Iarwain]

by the way. its Morgoth Bauglir, not Baglir

[Iarwain]

would anyone else like to comment?

[Galorme]

Letters (I dont know what number): Middle Earth is basically our earth a long way in the past. Also read History V, (The Other Writings of the Lost Road and Other Writings) and it gives a blow by blow account of how the world has progressed from earlier to now. I apologise for droping the u, and being Hard Headed, but i do believe i shape JRRT's opinion of the future of his books. Anyway even without the worlds being the same the future would still be similar.

Ok i am a little happier now (Listening to Ska :-D) and i admit that it was i was being a little dark. As for what books have i read i have read the first 10 books of the histories and all of the interesting stuff from 12. Plus LoTR and the Sil of course. And the hobbit about 200 times.

[Iarwain]

thanks for the reply. I tend to get very hyper when i pick up debates with people: I love proving them worng. thanks, its been very interesting. Sorry about the u, just another way to prove you wrong, but you weren't, totally that is. I've never managed to get a hold of a copy of The Lost Road, and i never read though all of the letters either.
Bye!

[Iarwain]

spelling error on me! I meant wrong.

[Diamond18]

I never said that I thought "The Last Battle" was a bad book. I just hated it. It takes away from the mystery and magic of a mythical world, I think, to describe it's end. But that's just me.

[Galorme]

I got scared there. Worng sounds like an orcish torture word to me. I have a habit of picking debates at the edge of the slightly fuzzy area's of Tolkiens work. I think it annoys people that i take the stuff written in the histories as truthful as the later works. I also take the thing to be true if it is fun and cool, not so much if it makes sense. I can strongly recommend any of the histories providing you read them for the right reasons. The Sil and the LoTRs, and especially LoTR contains much more 'true' stuff than the histories. Read them in their own right, they are almost all excellent providing you don’t expect the wrong things from them.

Oh yeah on the original topic I think that the best plot for a story would be to include Eriol, who is the character from the Lost Tales. He is a man who travels to the lonely isle, by a combination of good luck and bad luck on the part of the Elves (Osse was not quite the anchorer he made himself out to be. i will leave that as a teaser). There he learns of the elves and the things in the Sil, but more importantly he sees wonderful things and meets old and wise elves who tell him about the world and its history. He visits Kortion (sp???), and learns of the cottage of lost play. I think that this is a wonderful feel, a happiness, a magic quality. It is very much Faerie, and it is even called such (The Haven of Swans is called The Bay of Faere). This is how you would make the next, and definitely final book. Ack i really want to say something else but it will ruin the book for you (lets just say it ends very much with man).

[Lord Halsar]

Have you ever thought that perhaps, there was a darker being at work than Melkor? Perhaps a lord of terror beyond even Eru Illuvatar's power? Perhaps their would be no final battle. Perhaps it was all a false prediction to give the mortals hope that darkness would be destroyed, that Melkor was the most powerful evil. I would see this as possible. After all, Melkor was once a Valar himself. someone who was evil since the beginning of time would have been far more ruthless and powerful. but alas, i am not Tolkien himself (though i would like to be). we may never know.

[Raynor]

Have you ever thought that perhaps, there was a darker being at work than Melkor?

Frankly, no.

Perhaps a lord of terror beyond even Eru Illuvatar's power?

That would contradict all that is stated of Eru .

[Lord Halsar]

Well, Tolkien pretty much left left the door wide open when it comes to "all-powerful beings"
and besides, this is only my speculation. after all, what did all of the evil things in Tolkien's work do after defeat? they slinked away and waited to be returned to their old strength.
for much of this, melkor was locked away and could not aid his failing servants. there could have been another lord of far greater power about. one that may have still been "fighting the good fight" even after Sauron's failure.
you never know with Tolkien...

[Raynor]

Well, Tolkien pretty much left left the door wide open when it comes to "all-powerful beings"

Hm, can you be more specific? With referrences maybe .

[Lord Halsar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, can you be more specific? With referrences maybe .

You're missing the point. if there was another "all-powerful" being about, then i doubt that Eru would have any desire to let people know of that being's existance.
and who knows, maybe there was another world like ME, only with a continuous war between darkness and light, a war that may have influenced something on middle earth.

[Elmo]

Everyone knows He Who Arises in Might is the mightiest being in and out of Ea, and will come again and smite Eru and the Valar. Turning Arda into his own fiefdom for all eternity. And we will build temples to praise the Lord of All, Giver of Freedom. What a great day that will be, when we bow down and worship the Great Lord of the Dark, deliverer of us from the evil of Eru!


























(Stop spluttering Ray, I'm joking )

[Lord Halsar]

Is this, "miss the intended topic" day or something? how many of you are actually going to consider what i have said?

[Elmo]

But then you could say anything could be in Middle Earth because Tolkien doesn't mention it! He states Eru is the most powerful thing there is.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lord Halsar

if there was another "all-powerful" being about, then i doubt that Eru would have any desire to let people know of that being's existance.
and who knows, maybe there was another world like ME, only with a continuous war between darkness and light, a war that may have influenced something on middle earth.

I guess I don't have anything to argue against a case which lacks any referrence to Eru not being the almighty (as he is repeatedly called). I was genuinely interested if you knew otherwise.

Originally Posted by hhaim

I'm joking

I'll take your word for it .

[Lord Halsar]

the most powerful being... known. what of others that are beyond the knowledge of the elves. or so powerful and dark that the elves chose to forget them long ago.

[Aiwendil]

And what if the Silmarillion is actually set in the Star Trek universe and it's all a big holodeck simulation? Then at the end of Time Iluvatar utters: "Computer, end program" and Arda disappears?

I don't mean to mock your suggestion, Halsar, but the point is that if one's argument is lack of evidence one can argue anything.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lord Halsar -

This is an intriguing concept to play with in a fantasy world of your own. However, given what we know about Tolkien's middle-earth, I do not see how such a creature could exist in the Legendarium. Everything we know about Tolkien's world would contradict the exist of a being who is "mightier" than Eru and entirely secret.

In my view, this is not a possibility.

With all the emphasis on the readers' right to interpret and the de-emphasis of canon, I still can't help feeling that some things are just "wrong"....at least if what the author says has any importance.

[Thenamir]

Lord Halsar, if you have no Tolkien-related reason for thinking as you do, then of course we cannot stop you. However, if you are going to bring this topic to a Tolkien forum such as the Barrow Downs, you should have some support for your position more substantial than "what if". Show us where Tolkien might have said or implied what you are supposing, or leave it alone.

[Lord Halsar]

yes, but what do we truly know of Eru Illuvatar anyway? since arda was formed, he mostly just sat idly by and watched the events turn and wars wage. whos to say that another being would not wage war against him.

[Lord Halsar]

i am merely thinking out loud. i have no intention of harming Tolkiens reputation or his idea's. that would be something that would be utterly against my nature.
so consider my point of veiw before you cast judgement upon my answers.

[Thenamir]

Last chance LH -- tell us where Tolkien ever said or implied this, or I will close this thread forthwith.

[Lord Halsar]

as i said before. i am merely thinking out loud. no reason to take such actions as such. if my comments have angered you in some way then i apologize. but as you said, you cannot stop me from considering such notions.
i meen no disrespect.

[Lord Halsar]

does anyone else have any desire for this to close?

[Thenamir]

This is not personal, LH. However, this is a forum for the discussion of Tolkien and Tolkien-related material. We try to allow, within reasonable limits, supposition and what-iffing based on things that have been hinted at or left loose, but to borrow from Aiwendil, it's rather like imagining what Sauron might have been able to accomplish if he'd had a Klingon warship at his command, or if they could have just gotten Scotty to beam the Ring into Mount Doom. It has nothing to do with "the world that is" -- by that I mean, it's not based on anything that could reasonably be supposed within the established boundaries of Tolkien's works.

Let me know via PM if you need further clarification.

[Lord Halsar]

I am not implying anything of the sort. i dont even watch Star Trek. i am merely attempting to keep minds open and the forums going. is that not what we are trying to do?

[Lord Halsar]

and besides, with Tolkien, anything is possible.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Nobody's trying to stop you considering notions that never appear in any of Tolkien's published writings, and are at variance with his whole philosophical position as far as it can be ascertained from those writings. Everyone is telling you that there's no point in discussing an idea the evidence for which is the complete lack of evidence in support of it. You can believe what you like, but here we discuss Tolkien's books and theories derived directly therefrom. If there are passages in the books or letters that suggest your theory then we can discuss it here, and I for one will gladly do that; but if this is just something that popped into your head spontaneously then it really doesn't belong here.

I mean, do I go around the forum propounding my theory that Fingolfin's battle with Morgoth is a mnemonic reminding Tolkien to pick up his robe from the dry cleaners? Well, not often, and not outside Mirth. Except just this once here for illustration.

and besides, with Tolkien, anything is possible

That is so far from being the case that it isn't even funny.

[Thenamir]

OK. You can choose to believe Tolkien, an expert in languages, wrote something clearly opposite of his intent. I choose to believe that Lord Halsar is actually davem in disguise.

Thre will be no return for Morgoth until the end of time, when ME is about to cease to exist. Sauron is finished for good, the Witch King is a more likely candidate but unlikely as the power of his Master in him is no more. Though one cannot rule out the Nazgul returning in their original form prior to being seized by Sauron & his Rings of power, as though they have been released from a spell.

There are times when I believe that these thread moderators are a bit too heavy handed with their actions & thoughts on people's posts. Unless there is naughty behaviour exchanged between posters, naughty punishments should not be delivered. Some obscurity is essential in threads to allow a far-reaching debate, & besides there are no more obscure creatures in any world than Hobbits!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Thre will be no return for Morgoth until the end of time, when ME is about to cease to exist. Sauron is finished for good, the Witch King is a more likely candidate but unlikely as the power of his Master in him is no more. Though one cannot rule out the Nazgul returning in their original form prior to being seized by Sauron & his Rings of power, as though they have been released from a spell.

IIRC, Tolkien notes in the letters that the witch king has been reduced to impotence, while Gandalf state that the nazgul stand or fall by their master. I would say all evidence point to the nazgul becoming insignificant after the fall of Sauron (not even Sauron is great enough to recover). As for the rest of your post, I will simply note my disagreement and leave it at that.

[Thenamir]

There is a difference between debating the differing views of an obscure point and inserting wildly and radically non-canonical points that fly in the face of well established and thoroughly documented sources. Open minded scientists may well differ as to whether light consists of particles or waves, but they will not waste time with the theory of a McDonald's grease-jockey that postulates that light consists of macaroni and cheese.

As Squatter has noted (and as LH has taken the hint) such theories are better discussed in the Mirth forum, where the point is being discussed in a lively fashion even now.