Galadriel of Lorien?

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(I'm new here, and have just started reading the Tolkien books, and I was wondering if you could help me with a question I have.)

Why do the men of Rohan fear her so and believe that she is such a, well, evil person? They don't know that she has one of the three elven rings, yet they know that she is powerful and fear her. But none of them have ever laid eyes on her. Could someone please explain this to me? I'd appreciate the input.

<font color=red> ~Alas, Babylon~<flashfont> </p>

[Telchar]

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Galadriel

well, for two reasons I think. JRRT wanted to say: &quot;Men fear that which they do not know and do not understand&quot;. Secondly (and I dont know if you've read The Silmarillion) because Elves and men became estranged from one another, and that was one most evil deeds of Melkor/Morgoth. He told lies to the elves about men, and vise versa. Actually it's really one of the most sad parts of MiddleEarth. *snif*

Cheers Telchar

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Re: Galadriel

Yes, I thought of that, but they never mentioned any especial fear or hatred of Celeborn, which I thought was just as likely since he's an Elven lord hidden away in Lorien, who, from as far away as Rohan, would seem to excercise just as much if not more power than Galadriel.

(*Sighs* No, I haven't read the Silmarillion yet. I'm half way through The Two Towers, and I've read the Hobbit and the Fellowship of the Ring. I'm just getting started on Tolkien books, really.)

<font color=red> ~Alas, Babylon~<flashfont> </p>

[Drew2K1]

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Re: Galadriel

I think it mentioned in LoTR's somewhere that men who went to LothLorien normally didn't leave it again or came back changed.

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[red]

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Re: Re: Galadriel

Well, if I went in Lothlorien, I doubt I'd want to leave either!!! And I'm betting the 'change' was a change for the good. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

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Re: Re: Galadriel

I agree, but the people of Rohan probably didn't find the change good.

Btw, red, is your picture of DNA or RNA by any chance?

<font color=red> ~Alas, Babylon~<flashfont> </p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Re: Galadriel

You can understand the distance between elves and men without having read the Silmarillion. I charaterize it thusly to myself. From the point of view of the Elven, Men were short-lived and unaware of nature. They did not give the same reverence to the Valar (gods) becuase to all living men in the Third Age, the Valar were but an abstraction and stories. They probably thought of men as we would think of adolescents. We respect them as people, but know much that they do not.

Men on the other hand, probably found Elves to be strange and mysterious. Elves don't die, they have elaborate ceremonies, they are much more in touch with nature, and they are more aware (at least in the case of the leaders) of the divinity of the Valar. They also probably find them cold and arrogant, which makes sense from the point of view that they were mostly being treated like adolescents. Also, the Elven were pretty few and far between by the Third Age (when the Lord of the Rings takes place) and as such were even more magical and unknowable. Galadriel was among the eldest of all in Middle Earth and as such her name would have been in tales out of Gondor and heard by the Rohirrim, much more so than Celeborn's would have. I would imagine that the men who strayed into Lorien were changed in ways that made them more elf-life and mysterious, thus frightening.

-*-The X Phial-*- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Galadriel

((Jena!!! *Huge grin* how did you get here? My name? <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> Anna seems to be following me around like that... Can't answer the qustion, sorry. Just had to say hi <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ))

~*Hannah*~ Nowadays a broken heart will run to many editions. ~ The Picture of Dorian Gray, Oscar Wilde</p>

[red]

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Re: Re: Galadriel

DNA. I do the work of a molecular biologist.

edit: It isn't the DNA of anything, it is just a model.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 4/29/01 3:51:18 pm

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Re: Re: Galadriel

(Hey Hannah! *Sheepish smile* I'm not quite sure how I found this place, but it seems really cool. Once I've read all the books I'll probably join one or two of the roleplays.<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> )

That would make more sense, then. They dislike elves in general, for being more in touch with nature and living longer, and they dislike Galadriel in particular she is one of the eldest more powerful elves. Thanks, X Phial!

That's really interesting. What is it the DNA of?



<font color=red> ~Alas, Babylon~<flashfont> </p>

[Aldaron]

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Re: Re: Galadriel

The X Phial explains quite nicely. Think of the elves as the original environmentalists.

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[Falmar]

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Re: Re: Galadriel

I think there are a couple of other reasons the men of Rohan feared Lorien other than just the general estrangement between men and elves. Note that the men of the Long Lake were not at all afraid of the elves of Mirkwood. Whereas there was much commerce between Thranduil's kingdom and men (and probably the dwarves of Erebor), Lorien kept its borders closed to all strangers with very few exeptions. I believe much of the fear men had for Lorien can be blamed on its own isolationist policies.
Also there may have been some sexism involved. To the people of Rohan (and most other places) it wouldn't seem natural for a woman to wield so much power.

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[Amandil]

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Re: Galadriel of Lorien?

I always had visions of the marchwardens of Lorien being none too gentle with the occasional human hunter that strayed too far towards their lands. Perhaps, in the past, they were not averse to pushing/steering them towards southern Mirkwood and they came to bad ends. All the people of Rohan would know is that some family member went out hunting, perhaps even with a group, and didn't come back.
I didn't see Lorien open to the casual visitor....at least not tree-felling humans.

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Re: Galadriel of Lorien?

Yea they just didnt understand that even if she had all that power, she wont put it to evil.


Gilmy son of Gimli grandson of Gloin

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[Meriadoc61]

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Rohan's fear of Lady Galadriel

Falmar, you said &quot;Also there may have been some sexism involved. To the people of Rohan (and most other places) it wouldn't seem natural for a woman to wield so much power.&quot;

I do not believe sexism was the basis of their fears. Remember when the muster of Rohan was preparing to do battle with Saruman's armies after Gandalf cured Theoden, and the people were preparing to move to Dunharrow? Whom did they wish to lead them? Their answer was &quot;We trust in the house of Eorl,&quot; meaning Eowyn.

I believe they distrusted Elves in general (remember how the horsemen initially reacted to finding Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli?), and also those who delved in sorcery. They were none too fond of Gandalf, and there were some who still suspected his motives even after Gandalf cured Theoden, wondering what he was up to when he left them before the battle at Helm's Deep. Galadriel was both an Elf and a practictioner of magic, and hence, there fear of her.

Just one man's opinion.

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I believe that strangers who entered Lorien were most likely killed by the guard. There are certainly ample indications of their aversion to intrusion, even when dealing with the Fellowship (made up mostly of elf-friends). People who enter Lorien vanish, and are never heard from again. This is known far and wide throughout the land, and is confirmed by comments of the elves of Lorien themselves about their policies.

Rivendale is unique is being a dwelling of all the different races. I do not believe the residents of Lorien were adopting any Man who wandered into their woods.

Remember, even good guys have some rather harsh policies in Middle Earth. Gondor explicitly requires the slaying of anyone who sees their hide-out, irregardless of the reason for seeing it.

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Solid State Entity ]

[Galorme]

Sorry have I missed something here? You are talking about Galadriel of the house of Finwe. The same Galadriel who's only wish in her youth was to rule over others and have then bow down to her? The one who was, if not evil, then a little twisted and not a very nice person.

Legends of this Elf-Witch, who had returned from over the west to take a kingdom of her own, were probably passed down to the people of Rohan. If the Galadriel of the Ages of the Stars were to move in next to me I would be scared too.

[Luineglin]

i disagree galorme. the men of rohan are not learned in the ancient lore. they would not have heard of these stories. and yes she was shall we say a little misguided in her youth but she was not an evil person who wanted to rule the world.

[Galorme]

Maybe not, but they could have heard something from the men of Gondor who were (at least in the olden days) learned in lore.

[Luineglin]

yes that is a possibility but even the men of westernese thought of the golden lady with some dread for their lore had begun to fade. if they were begining to forget it i think that the riders of rohan definetly were

[Galorme]

Forgotten all except a rumour that a powerful powerhungry elf-witch had come out of the west in ages passed and dwells now in Lorien perhaps. I bet that would but the scares into them.

All I am saying is the idea of a somewhat unsavery elf-witch would not be a totally unrational belief for the people of Rohan to have.

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, there is quite appropriate a lot of apprehension among different peoples in Middle-Earth to one another. It's not just a man-thing even, much less a Rohan thing.

Boromir & Faramir voice the beliefs of Gondor, despite all its lore, and where Galadriel spend a goodly part of the Third Age (Edholland).

What we have with Men, however, is the not just the span of distances and other barriers, but also that centuries and generations have gone by. So, at one level memories have faded, and ignorance and superstition and baseless fear as filled the void.

But also there is wisdom in all of it, too. Like Fangorn, Galadriel and Lothlorien are extremely dangerous.

In particular, a world that is unnatural for mortals abides yet in the Golden World. JRRT rues the estrangement between the two kindred, yet at the same time questions the appropriateness of the Men and Elves having much contact in the first place. It's a double-edge sword, and the Rohirrim are not necessarily being stupid, but justifiably prudent.

[doug*platypus]

Lorien is a very mysterious, dangerous and unpredictable place, even for someone like Frodo who is very open-minded and elfy himselfy. Some people don't get in, some do, everyone comes out under some kind of a spell, which may be perceived as sinister by more conservative people, especially by Men of the Twilight like the Rohirrim. And Galadriel herself is "perilously fair", isn't she? The epitome of elf-queen beauty, strange and untouchable. It's not surprising that stories have come down through the generations of her unearthly powers - the men of Rohan understandably fear what they do not understand.

[lindil]

Entering Lothlorien is the closest a mortal is going to come [ unless you are Tuor,Gimli Amandil or a ring -bearer] to living in 'Undying Lands'.

Galadriel had effectively stopped Time there, things were hallowed and did not decay. THe effects of the curse of Morgoth were to a large degree overcome.

The food was different, the music was different, the prople 'perilously beautiful', I know if I have entered and left, and gone back to say Rohan, I would forever be thinking back to that, less efective in my work etc.

This would all seem as if someone, i.e. the Lady of the Golden Wood had 'put a spell on you'.

Infact you perceived truth and beauty to such a degree that to integrate and remain ion your old society would be extremely difficult. The Fellowship managed [ although we read they all had tears in their eyes upon leaving [even Boromir]] because a] they had felt the power of a ring within an Elven community before and b] they stayed mostly with each other and c] they were travelling with an Elf and aragorn who were able to act as intermediaries.

So it is a similar situation to people who experience heaven and come back, they often can not speak of it directly, and many become monks or nuns, i.e.to live in a world where return is possible or at least not actively hindered.

It is one of the many tragedies of the LotR that theElves are still there, next door to Rohan or companies walking through the shire but the mortals around them can not bring themselves to avail themselves of these living treasures of lore and wisdom.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lindil,

This is a beautiful and insightful post, yet there is one point you imply that I think is not accurate:

It is one of the many tragedies of the LotR that theElves are still there, next door to Rohan or companies walking through the shire but the mortals around them can not bring themselves to avail themselves of these living treasures of lore and wisdom.

Unfortunately, I don't think it was simply a matter of Men refusing to recognize the goodness and riches around them. As others have said before, many of the Elves purposely chose to isolate themselves from the world of Men. I will not say that this isolation was universal. Thraindul's folk in Greenwood/Mirkwood, for instance, had more ties with their neighbors.

But just look at Frodo's experience with the Elves near the Shire at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings. I am fairly certain, from what we know of Frodo, that this hobbit certainly respected Elves and would have desired closer contact with them. Yet, the Elves confided to him they have seen him before yet chose to remain hidden: "We have seen you often before with Bilbo, though you may not have seen us." Hence, even though Bilbo could definitely be termed an Elf-friend from his previous adventure, the Elves had not revealed themselves on the hobbits' former walks through the forest, at least when Frodo was there.

And what about Sam? He would certainly have been open to the Elves. And I refuse to believe that, out of all of Middle-earth, these three hobbits (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam) were the only ones. So I am again drawn back to a critical question: was this kind of isolation and withdrawal necessary on the part of the Elves?

That isolation had to have an impact on how mortals viewed both Galadriel and Lorien. And let's face it, our myths and legends, not just those of Middle-earth, are filled with examples of how Men particularly feared the figure of a strong woman, especially one who wielded powers that might be viewed as magical. That did not help Galadriel either.

And yet, time and time again, I find myself asking whether the Elves' isolation was necessary or desirable. Certainly, I understand there were legitimate reasons for it. To be immortal and watch generation after generation of Men die could not have been easy. If we read the Silm, one can certainly find reasons that the Elves would have to distrust Men (although the slate was not totally clean on the other side either!).

Yet, I still come away with a feeling of sadness. Perhaps this isolation is one of the necessary but tragic features of a world that has been marred.

[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]