Galadriel

[Orald]

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did the curse of mandos/doom of the noldor affect galadriel? i am assuming it didn't, but shouldn't it have?
i mean all of her brother, her father and uncles died, why didn't she.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. </p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Galadriel

Difficult answer.

On one hand it did.
On the other (in re-write) it didn't.

Take your pick as to the answer that suits you.

I take the second option, but then that's based on my views already expressed here.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

And she never joined the oath of Fëanor, as the rest of the best did, nor killed anybody in Alqualondë

[Voronwe]

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Re: Galadriel

I don't understand. I though only Feanor and his seven sons swore the oath.


-Voronwë
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Galadriel

The Doom of the Noldor is also a result of the Kinslaying, not SOLELY due to the Oath of Feanor.

It applied to the Sons especially, but ALSO to ANY who followed them.

In the re-write; Galadriel did not accompany the Noldor, but set out for Middle earth independently, and of different motivation accompanied by her mate Celeborn and his tag-along Teler friend Celebrimbor.

</p>

[Orald]

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i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

i agree with you on the kinslaying and the oath of feanor, but the sons of finarfin took no part in the kinslaying yet they were also bound to the curse of mandos.

unless i am mistaken wouldn't the HoME books and the unfinished tales be the original documents since the silmarillion was taken from them?

and wasn't celebrimbor the son of curufin, which should also bind him to the oath of feanor
or should it. there are a lot of arguments and exceptions dealing with this, i maybe we should start another post dealing with celebrimbor too.

</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but the sons of finarfin took no part in the kinslaying yet they were also bound to the curse of mandos<hr></blockquote>
Yes; that's why it's stipulated above in that it also applied to ANY who followed Feanor and sons into exile.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> since the silmarillion was taken from them<hr></blockquote>
A heavily contested position.

Some like to pick and choose what is taken.
But your premise is correct. They are the ultimate source.
Christopher arranged the notes for publication as best as he was able at the time.
History paints a slightly different picture when taken into context.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> i maybe we should start another post dealing with celebrimbor too<hr></blockquote>
You could... but there really wouldn't be much point.
Depending on which view is taken of document context... just about ANYTHING could be presented about Celebrimbor (and other instances) and be vaild (within reason please)... again; depending on which view is taken of document context and time-frame. In the re-write; Celebrimbor is NOT the son of Curufin, nor is even a Noldo.

I've gotten into a few disagreements on textual stance, and advise against such a course of action as it ultimately leads to futility; due to personal interpretation, (and even fabrication) as rebuttal.

I merely presented the situation as evidence of re-write and as an aid in the answer to your question.

AFAIK; this is one of the last issues addressed by Tolkien before his death (if not THE last).
Some hold (I do not) that he was near dotage and couldn't remember things clearly, and that this is the reason for extensive changes in the latter part of his life. That is thier opinion of course. I let others judge the justness of it.

And in answer to the re-named topic: not exactly.
The published Silmarillion is CHRISTOPHER'S re-write.
Not JRRT's.

</p>

[Orald]

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Re: i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

i haven't read all of HoME but in most cases i will take it for fact over Silmarillion. I choose to do this for a couple reasons:
1) they are a truer source since they were taken more directly from J.R.R. Tolkien's notes.
2) each story is expanded on in HoME whereas LotR and Sil. aren't. so there is more information in HoME though it may seem more cryptic.

So i will go along with celebrimbor being sindarin, even if he may seem like a greater craftsman than most of the noldor(Eol was). and galadriel undertaking the journey for different reasons, although it makes less sense.
one of the few cases i won't take HoME over Sil. is in Finwe's case, Sil.'s just seems right.

</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> i will take it for fact over Silmarillion<hr></blockquote>
That is your option.
I happen to agree with it, but it is your option.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> one of the few cases i won't take HoME over Sil. is in Finwe's case<hr></blockquote>
Speaking of cryptic staements; what does this mean?
Finwe's case concerning.....?

</p>

[Arvedui]

When one takes an author's notes and drafts and works them into a story, thewre will be inconsistancies. Chris Tolkien has done a rather amazing job putting all the bits together, and I have to say that I'm suprised there are not more inconsistancies. One of the harder stories to piece together is that od Celeborn and Galadriel as noted in Unfinished Tales.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Orald

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did the curse of mandos/doom of the noldor affect galadriel? i am assuming it didn't, but shouldn't it have?
i mean all of her brother, her father and uncles died, why didn't she.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. </p>

I don't think she was under the curse. The sorrows she experienced in Middle-earth (e.g. death of her brothers, loss of kingdoms, capture of Celebrian, etc...), all these tragedies seem to be a given as long as a Dark Lord is present. Tragedies touched everyone--Men and the Nandor (who were not present or explicitly cursed by Mandos). So it's not too reliable to attribute Galadriel's trials with the curse, especially if you're going with Tolkien's late idea of Galadriel. But if it's the Silmarillion, she was still guiltless from the kinslaying and her intentions to leave valinor were solely for the exercise of her talents. Nothing sinister or curse-evoking about that.

[morwen edhelwen]

What curse? if you are using the account that says she participated in the Kinslaying, the Doom may have just meant, for her, that she was under the Ban and semi-permanent exile. The tragedies that affected her (such as Celebrian's death) may have had nothing to do with the fact that she had disobeyed the Valar.

[Galin]

AFAIK; this is one of the last issues addressed by Tolkien before his death (if not THE last). Some hold (I do not) that he was near dotage and couldn't remember things clearly, and that this is the reason for extensive changes in the latter part of his life. That is thier opinion of course. I let others judge the justness of it.

But this issue of Tolkien's memory is raised by Christopher Tolkien himself, for example...

'These late writings are notable for the many wholly new elements that entered the 'legendarium'; and also for the number of departures from earlier work on the Matter of the Elder Days. It may be suggested that whereas my father set great store by consistency at all points with The Lord of the Rings and the Appendices, so little concerning the First Age had appeared in print that he was under far less constraint. I am inclined to think, however, that the primary explanation of these differences lies rather in his writing largely from memory. The histories of the First Age would always remain in a somewhat fluid state so long as they were not fixed in published work; and he certainly did not have all the relevant manuscripts clearly arranged and set out before him. But it remains in any case an open question, whether (to give a single example) in the essay Of Dwarves and Men he had definitely rejected the greatly elaborated account of the houses of the Edain that had entered the Quenta Silmarillion in about 1958, or whether it had passed from his mind.'

Christopher Tolkien, Foreword, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Even Tolkien himself noted: 'There are clear evidences of confusion (as he said at one point, 'my memory is no longer retentive'), but there are elements...' CJRT, Last Writings

And I would add that Tolkien need not have been very old to write a new text while forgetting some detail already published. The Lord of the Rings is a relatively long and detailed work, and it would be easy enough for anyone to forget something that arguably 'should' have been considered when writing later texts.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

What curse? if you are using the account that says she participated in the Kinslaying, the Doom may have just meant, for her, that she was under the Ban and semi-permanent exile. The tragedies that affected her (such as Celebrian's death) may have had nothing to do with the fact that she had disobeyed the Valar.

There was no death for Celebrian. She left for Valinor after that terrible ordeal at the Redhorn pass.

[morwen edhelwen]

[QUOTE=Gorthaur the Cruel;631402]There was no death for Celebrian. She left for Valinor after that terrible ordeal at the Redhorn pass.[/QUOTE
Yes. i forgot..but didn't Tolkien write somewhere that Elf-women could die from being attacked by Orcs? Can someone confirm the truth of this? Celebrian did not die.. but she could have, couldn't she? -Morwen Edhelwen.

[elbenprincess]

elf maidens would die if they are raped by someone. And I don´t believe she was raped, "just" tortured.

[Pitchwife]

Well, we don't really know what atrocities Orcish methods of torturing captive Elven women did or didn't include (and I don't really want to know), but considering that Celebrían's need for healing was so overwhelming that she abandoned her husband and children for it, she must have suffered something extremely traumatizing.

[morwen edhelwen]

Yeah...

[Nerwen]

Morwen, I'm really not clear what point you're trying to make about Celebrían's "death". Whether or not she could have died, the fact remains that she... you know... didn't.

elbenprincess– regarding the bit about "rape = death for Elves". This is a "rule" that's puzzled me for a while. It's very often cited (especially by fan-fic authors attacking each others' work ), but anyone know the source? Was it a lasting element of Tolkien's legendarium (that I've never picked up), or just something he scribbled on the back of an envelope? The only reference I know of is the first draft of "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" (Note 5 to the main text in "Morgoth's Ring"):

But among all these deeds there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos.

In the next version Tolkien revised this passage to:

Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of any deeds of lust among them.

No mention of "rape = death".

So, if that's where it comes from, it's pretty clearly a passing idea that the author soon rejected.

Or is there another, more authoritative source? Anyone know?

[Erendis]

Curse Wikipedia as the only source of informations!

No,apart from those two you have mentinned,I at least cannot recall another one citing that rape would lead an Elf to abandon its hröa.

However,let me wonder on that question:If that was a fact,then how did the first Orcs aka Tortured and Corrupted Elves multiply?Does that imply that even Orcs had some feelings left at their dawn?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Curse Wikipedia as the only source of informations!

No,apart from those two you have mentinned,I at least cannot recall another one citing that rape would lead an Elf to abandon its hröa.

In that case it may be an example of the kind of thing that has led me to abandon Middle-earth-based fan-fiction. There's plenty of complaints about winged Mary Sues riding pink unicorns– but their critics can be annoying too. Some will lay down the law about what is, or isn't, "canon" on the basis of out-of-context quotes, or downright weird interpretations that I suspect would have startled Tolkien himself considerably. (Did you know Elves don't need to eat?)

...Anyway, I think this has got seriously off-topic. Sorry about that.

[elbenprincess]

That is not really on topic, but I read somewhrere that Feanor might have been in love with galadriel, I read a quote: "Feanor was in love with galadriel..." but I don´t know if is was really stated in one book. Does somebody know more, was it stated that way somewhere?

Could that be, I mean he asked her three times for a strand of her hair and if he really just wanted to have it for a gemme, than he just could have stolen it, but that seems somehow like a courtship behavior, and therefor it wouldn´t help him to steal it. And he even beged for it. (feanor and beg(g)ing?

I think it´s interesting to imagine how the history of ME could have had changed if she just had give him some hair or at least had been nicer to him, I imagine her at her time in valinor a little arrogant, at least towards feanor, and that must had upset him.

[Galin]

Hmm, it was noted that Feanor wedded Nerdanel while he was still in early youth, and I get the impression at least (I haven't really looked at all the relevant texts here) that possibly he was married before Galadriel was born.

Anyway, according to later texts Feanor wondered at Galadriel's hair... but many likely did

As an artist of such amazing calibre, Feanor's asking for Nerwenian hair might be due to his fiery, creative zeal. At least that's how I thought of it.

[elbenprincess]

Yes, he wedded her long before artanis was born and yes, I think you are right, he probably just wanted the hair to create something, otherwise it would have been really creepy...creepy half uncle

I wonder if it was difficult for artanis to come to the fore of the rebellion and all that. If we look at Arwen, we see that Elrond still, although she was 3000, has a lot of say in her life. I wonder if artanis father tried to hold her off (she was even younger than 3000, she was about 1030) or if he just accepted his destiny.
And even long time before this events, I suppose, she was not the "normal" girl, we know she was strong in mind and body and all that...and maybe her parents had a lot of trouble, if they wanted her to behave like a "normal" girl. I guess especially among the eldar ( women no right to become queen...) such a behavior was probably not really approved.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

And even long time before this events, I suppose, she was not the "normal" girl, we know she was strong in mind and body and all that...and maybe her parents had a lot of trouble, if they wanted her to behave like a "normal" girl. I guess especially among the eldar ( women no right to become queen...) such a behavior was probably not really approved.

Well... I don't think that would be the case "especially" among the Eldar– it's word-of-author that, whatever their rules on inheritance, they weren't otherwise all that rigid about gender roles:

Originally Posted by Laws and Customs of the Eldar

In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal– unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters about which among the Eldar only a ner [man] can think or do, or others with only a nis [woman] is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom...(etc.; goes into detail, which is too long to quote here.)

[elbenprincess]

I have a question about the phiole of galadriel. It is said, that the phiole holds the light of earendils simaril (the star). How was it possible for her to catch the light?Maybe it wasn´t herself?
Somewhere I read that Yavanna tried to heal the trees with the light of such phials, she asked Aule and Manwe (i suppose in Aman they were able to catch the light) but they (Manwe and Aule) were very stingy, they wouldn´t give away much. So I suppose it is not easy to catch the light, and I think it is cool that galadriel was able, if she did it herself? But maybe this was also a present, like the elessar she get from Yavanna?
Did Yavanna gave Olorin the elessar especially for galadriel (I know at some point she was supposed to give it another person, but at this point, was it meant to be for galadriel) ? If it is the case, it is really amazing that a VALAR!!! thinks of galadriel that way

Another little topic, maybe not that important, but it annoys me a little that everywhere you read that arwen was the beautifullest elven in ME, actually it is stated, that galadriel was the mightiest and fairest=beautifullest of the remaining elves in ME. Although it is said that Arwen was the likeness of Luthien!!!
And it was said that Galadriel was the fairest of all the house of Finwe? Does that mean of all the noldor in Aman, did they all belong to the house of finwe, cause he was their king?

For me it seems that tolkien intended galadriel beeing at least the second beautifullest beeing ever, maybe even as beautiful as Luthien (we know he often changed his mind, maybe in his later years he changed his opinion about luthien a little.

Beatifullest
1. Luthien
2. Galadriel
3. Arwen

Greatest
1. Luthien (but IMHO Galadriel is greater)
2. Galadriel
3. Feanor (haha defeated by two girls)

Sorry for the rant, couldn´t resist.

[morwen edhelwen]

The point? Well, actually the point is that whatever happened to Celebrian when she came into contact with the Orcs could have caused her to die, according to something Prof. Tolkien wrote. She didn't... but it still had a terrible impact on her and there was a possibility that she wouldn't have endured it, although all it meant, for her, was that she sailed West to be completely healed. Am I right? Ignore this if the thread isn't active... -Morwen

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

The point? Well, actually the point is that whatever happened to Celebrian when she came into contact with the Orcs could have caused her to die, according to something Prof. Tolkien wrote. She didn't... but it still had a terrible impact on her and there was a possibility that she wouldn't have endured it, although all it meant, for her, was that she sailed West to be completely healed. Am I right? Ignore this if the thread isn't active... -Morwen

Well, if your point is simply that some bad things happened to Galadriel, I can't really argue with it– it's just that it came across a bit as if you were refusing to admit you'd been mistaken about Celebrian's death, which is what was puzzling me.

Anyway, since you ask, the rape = death business appears to be more "fanon" than canon anyway– see my points above– and besides, it's certainly never stated that's what happened to Celebrian (nasty fan-fic notwithstanding). So I'd say her suffering wasn't caused by Elves having any special weakness but simply because, you know, torture hurts.

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

Ignore this if the thread isn't active...

Don't worry, threads here are immortal, just like Elves.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Did Yavanna gave Olorin the elessar especially for galadriel (I know at some point she was supposed to give it another person, but at this point, was it meant to be for galadriel) ? If it is the case, it is really amazing that a VALAR!!! thinks of galadriel that way

Hmm, Gandalf ultimately does say: 'This I give to you from Yavanna', so maybe, but why she would need it to keep things from fading, when she can use Nenya at this point in time, is difficult to say however.

Perhaps Tolkien meant this version of the tale to be considered false by the reader (referring to: 'In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone.' from earlier in the text), or externally, maybe Tolkien just made a mistake in a rough draft that happened to survive for us Tolkien fans.

This text is, in any event, a very rough draft, mainly in the first stage of composition.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, if your point is simply that some bad things happened to Galadriel, I can't really argue with it– it's just that it came across a bit as if you were refusing to admit you'd been mistaken about Celebrian's death, which is what was puzzling me.

Anyway, since you ask, the rape = death business appears to be more "fanon" than canon anyway– see my points above– and besides, it's certainly never stated that's what happened to Celebrian (nasty fan-fic notwithstanding). So I'd say her suffering wasn't caused by Elves having any special weakness but simply because, you know, torture hurts.



Don't worry, threads here are immortal, just like Elves.

Ha ha! Well maybe i should try and reword my points more clearly.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, Gandalf ultimately does say: 'This I give to you from Yavanna', so maybe, but why she would need it to keep things from fading, when she can use Nenya at this point in time, is difficult to say however.

There was an excerpt in UT concerning Nenya's (negative) effect on Galadriel. It seems the elven ring had caused her joy in ME to "diminish," (or something along those lines) which is ironic considering that the Silmarillion states there was mirth in the places were the Three were in use. Could it be that she longed for the Elessar again for this reason? What is this "diminishing effect" that Nenya caused in her? It seems contradictory to the nature of the Three.

[Galin]

That's from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (itself described as a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed), which explains that Nenya increased Galadriel's latent desire for the Sea, thus diminishing her joy -- and given that the problem I mentioned above concerns chronology, Christopher Tolkien notes here (at this idea in this text) that Galadriel cannot have used Nenya until a much later time (note 9).

Christopher Tolkien does note that Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn and The Elessar were probably written at about the same time, and The Elessar does note: 'For the years of her exile began to lie heavy on the Lady of the Noldor, and she longed for news of her kin and for the blessed land of her birth, and yet was unwilling to forsake Middle-earth' (altered later to say that she was not yet permitted to forsake Middle-earth).

But that said, I can't find any indication in The Elessar itself that using Nenya had diminished Galadriel's joy so that she longed for another means of preserving her lands. In the 'Gandalf version' Galadriel notes that the land fades, and her heart yearns 'remembering trees and grass that do not die', and as this follows a discourse concerning Aman, to me the implication here is that Galadriel is remembering the Far West.

To me, it reads as if she had never attempted to use Nenya before Gandalf arrived!

The detail raised could explain Galadriel's desire for another means of preservation, but what about the rest of the story? Was the stone to work as well as Nenya, for example, and if so, was it to essentially replace her ring until Aragorn received it! and if not, then what?

If I recall correctly Hammond and Scull note that according to the first possible Elessar tale, Galadriel seems to have neglected her charge in that she herself did not keep the Elessar for Aragorn. This is another problematic aspect of this version I think.


Was Tolkien prepared to reveal that Galadriel wielded the Elessar instead of Nenya until she gave the former to Aragorn? I don't think so, and again, if this were truly the cause behind Galadriel desiring the Elessar in the Third Age, to my mind it seems a notable element to go unsaid in the text itself (the one that deals with the Elessar specifically).

In my opinion, raising the Elessar's power beyond that of making things appear fair, and (with respect to actual potency) healing by individual ministering ('preserving' in this sense, which is much more limited a power than holding constant sway over a whole realm), steps too much on the power of the Rings as well as stepping upon the impact of the story of Eregion.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

^ This latent desire for the sea, does it mean the sea in a literal sense, or for Valinor? If the Three rings could conjure mini-Valinoresque enclaves, wouldn't this longing of hers be assuaged by what she has done to Lothlorien (preserving & beautifying)? Or is this another inconsistency of Tolkien's? If her joy in ME was truly diminished as UT suggests, she wouldn't have coveted the One or be so concerned with preserving Lorien (destruction of the One negates Nenya). I guess it seems strange to me that Celebrimbor would deliberately give her that ring, knowing it would have that effect on her. It almost seems like he rigged Nenya.

[Galin]

Hmm, good questions. First I should add that the actual quote reads: 'increased her latent desire for the Sea and for return into the West.'

I find various problematic issues with both Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn and The Elessar, and we know that not every idea within these two texts survived revision (noting again, in Tolkien's defense, both are not exactly finished and polished texts), but maybe something else is said that can support this idea?

I don't recall any mention of the ring in RGEO at least, although the following sequence is a highly compressed account of course: at the end of the First Age Galadriel is banned and replies that she has no wish to sail West -- she passes from Lindon to Eregion and...

'But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward (...) and she returned over the Sea, as is told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.'

See also Appendix F 'Of the Elves', where the yearning for the Sea was an unquiet never to be stilled in the hearts of the Exiles.

Galadriel's problem here appears to be that she is one of the Tareldar. In note 5 to CG&C (which looks at various notes on the names of Lórien) it is noted: '... deliberately echoing the name of the golden tree that grew in Valinor, 'For which, as is plain, Galadriel's longing increased year by year to, at last, an overwhelming regret.' But it is also said that Galadriel endeavoured to make Lórien an island of peace an beauty, a memorial of ancient days, and that she was: 'filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening.'


Perhaps Tolkien meant diminished in measure? in other words, wielding Nenya increased her joy (and that of other Elves), as she could have the power to echo the West in some measure and halt the swift fading in Middle-earth, from an Elvish perspective... but still it came with a price: a relative diminishing of that joy because Nenya yet increased her desire for the 'real thing', and (ultimately) a growing knowledge that what she had gained would yet be lost.


It's an interesting question. If other passages might connect to this I hope people post them. There might be something else here, in a letter maybe? or The Lord of the Rings itself perhaps? but I can't think of anything at the moment. Certainly we know the great effect when the Three lose their potency.

This all said, as yet I'm not convinced I need to go beyond Galadriel's status as High Elven and one of the Etyañgoldi -- and a banned Exile at that -- to explain her growing desire for the Sea (note this factor within the Celeborn from Aman notion too, considering that he did not sail with Galadriel in any event). And Lórien's ultimate fading is already one price (for example) for using Nenya.

Anyway, is CG&C the sole source of this 'great' power of Nenya upon Galadriel?