Of the House of Ingwë and Indis' parentage

[Arvegil145]

So - the idea that Indis was either the sister or (in a later version) the niece of Ingwë has been all but accepted by the fandom in general.

This is because of the fact that in The Shibboleth of Fëanor (from c. 1968, I believe) there is a quote:

...His second wife was Indis, which means 'great or valiant woman'. No other names are recorded. She is said to have been the daughter of King Ingwë's sister

- from The names of Finwë's descendants, PoME, p. 343


However, this is not the end of the story, because:

1) There is a footnote by Tolkien to the Shibboleth, along with CT's commentary, that goes like this:

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. (Lúthien was through her mother, Melian, descended also from the Máyar, the people of the Valar, whose being began before the world was made. Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves. This she did for love of Elwë; and it was permitted, no doubt because this union had already been foreseen in the beginning of things, and was woven into the Amarth of the world, when Eru first conceived the being of his children, Elves and Men, as is told (after the manner and according to the understanding of his children) in that myth that is named The Music of the Ainur.)

[As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.]

- note 53 to the Shibboleth, PoME, pp. 364-5

Mind you, this note is from around the same time period as the statement that Indis was Ingwë's niece.

But I think Christopher Tolkien's confusion with the above quote is most likely explained (IMO) by the fact that he wasn't aware that Tolkien already considered Indis as the daughter of Ingwë!

Which leads me to:

2) the recently published The Nature of Middle-earth. Long story short, every version of Indis' parentage in that book have her as Ingwë's daughter.

For example:

When Oromë asked for Ambassadors, Imin, Tata, and Enel were against the whole business, and refused to go. Ingwë was the eldest son of Ilion, who was in a direct line from Iminyë in the 4th generation (all having been first children and sons); sc. great-great grandson: he was tall, beautiful, beloved by the Imillië, more given to thought than the arts. His spouse was Ilwen (born FA 539). His first child was a son, Ingwil, his second a daughter Indis (born FA 934).

- Generational Schemes, NoME, p. 128

This particular text, however, is dated from c. 1959 - long before the Shibboleth and the note appended to it.

Also, there's this text:

At the beginning of the March Ingwë would be 160, Finwë 112, and Elwë 106. Ingwë married about 2072 + 108 = FA 2180; his first child (Indis) was born in 2181 (so 51 at the March), his second in 2230, just before the March. Míriel, also in the 25th gen., was born about 2130?

- Generational Schemes, NoME, p. 142

This text too dates from c. 1959.


While these texts are about 9 years earlier than the one in The names of Finwë's descendants, they serve to illustrate that Tolkien very much envisioned Indis as the daughter of Ingwë at multiple points in time.

And, finally:

3) As far as I can tell, belonging to a 'House', say...'House of Ingwë', implies patrilineal descent (that is, father/child descent) for the most part in Tolkien's writings.

So, of course, there's this quote from the Shibboleth:

There was a fair lady of the Vanyar, Indis of the House of Ingwë. She had loved Finwë in her heart, ever since the days when the Vanyar and the Noldor lived close together.

- The Shibboleth of Fëanor, The case of the Quenya change of th to s, PoME, p. 334

This text also dates from c. 1968 or so.


And to top it all:

4) It just makes so much more sense for all our main characters, such as Elrond, the Dunedain descended from Elros (such as Aragorn), Arwen, etc. to be descended from all 3 great Elf-kings!

[Huinesoron]

Great point about "NoME Indis". Looking at the two Shibboleth texts, it certainly appears that the Aragorn note was written after the "daughter of his sister" comment in the text; it's a footnote to the end of the "Names" section.

The "sister" version is from HoME X:261-2, the "Finwe and Miriel" chapter. Looking at the sequence of composition, the "FM4" text which makes Indis sister of Ingwe was written after "FM2", which was derived from LaCE, which is itself ca. 1958. "FM3" was written on a new typewriter Tolkien acquired in January 1959 (cf. HoME X:300). And the NoME texts are among the latest in the "Time and Aging" composition sequence, which per NoME itself means they post-date the typescript of LaCE.

My best guess of the chronology is therefore:

• FM4, 1959: Indis, sister of Ingwe.
• NoME, 1959: Indis, daughter (1st or 2nd child) of Ingwe
• Shibboleth, 1968: Indis, niece of Ingwe.
• Shibboleth, 1968: Indis, descendent of Ingwe.

I'm afraid I do have to query your "House = patrilineal descent" comment. The House of Eorl, for example, includes two jumps to the maternal line, while the House of Beor seems to indicate the entire people of Beor. Then there's Gildor Inglorion, "of the golden House of Finrod", who isn't even related to Finarfin. That last in particular, along with things like the House of the Wing in Gondolin, makes me think we can't be confident "House of Ingwe" didn't just mean "people who lived in Ingwe's house".

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Great point about "NoME Indis". Looking at the two Shibboleth texts, it certainly appears that the Aragorn note was written after the "daughter of his sister" comment in the text; it's a footnote to the end of the "Names" section.

The "sister" version is from HoME X:261-2, the "Finwe and Miriel" chapter. Looking at the sequence of composition, the "FM4" text which makes Indis sister of Ingwe was written after "FM2", which was derived from LaCE, which is itself ca. 1958. "FM3" was written on a new typewriter Tolkien acquired in January 1959 (cf. HoME X:300). And the NoME texts are among the latest in the "Time and Aging" composition sequence, which per NoME itself means they post-date the typescript of LaCE.

My best guess of the chronology is therefore:

• FM4, 1959: Indis, sister of Ingwe.
• NoME, 1959: Indis, daughter (1st or 2nd child) of Ingwe
• Shibboleth, 1968: Indis, niece of Ingwe.
• Shibboleth, 1968: Indis, descendent of Ingwe.

I'm afraid I do have to query your "House = patrilineal descent" comment. The House of Eorl, for example, includes two jumps to the maternal line, while the House of Beor seems to indicate the entire people of Beor. Then there's Gildor Inglorion, "of the golden House of Finrod", who isn't even related to Finarfin. That last in particular, along with things like the House of the Wing in Gondolin, makes me think we can't be confident "House of Ingwe" didn't just mean "people who lived in Ingwe's house".

hS

Two things:

1) I just have to state that the note to the Shibboleth doesn't actually say that Indis was the daughter of Ingwe: you correctly wrote that she was a descendant of Ingwe (but I still believe, based on the evidence from NoME, that Tolkien had a father/daughter relationship in mind here, IMO at least)

2) You're also right about the 'Houses' situation - however, I did point out (maybe not as emphatically as I should've) that it is only for the most part that Tolkien had such a notion of a 'House': implying, of course, that there are exceptions.

But perhaps I'm wrong about my assumptions.


Also, the reason I didn't even bother giving sources for the 'Indis, sister of Ingwe' version is because I'm well aware that this version of her descent was discarded fairly quickly (as far as I can tell, at any rate).

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

2) You're also right about the 'Houses' situation - however, I did point out (maybe not as emphatically as I should've) that it is only for the most part that Tolkien had such a notion of a 'House': implying, of course, that there are exceptions.

But perhaps I'm wrong about my assumptions.

The 'Generational Schemes' text you were quoting from does have:
"It was arranged – for Imin, Tata, and Enel said men [i.e., Elvish males] awoke first, and began the families – that when any woman married one of another Company, she was reckoned to have joined the Company of her husband. The exchange was about equal and does not affect calculations materially. For the same reason, descent of authority was reckoned from the immediate father; but women were in no way considered less or unequal, and Quendian genealogy traced both lines of descent with care."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"House": I think Tolkien used both sides of what is traditionally a dual meaning in English usage- A) House meaning a ruling or powerful family, related by blood or at least marriage; and B) House meaning the above together with all their retainers and followers; their faction. Think Montagus and Capulets. (He also has Saruman pun(?) on a third, "physical dwelling" in his nasty jibe at the House of Eorl.)