The case for Dorwinion being an Elvish realm (+ speculation about Bladorthin)

[Arvegil145]

Long post incoming, beware!

Not that it matters to the subject at question - but I will I die on the hill that the inhabitants of Dorwinion were a mixture of the Nandor and Avari...and going further than that - I'm about 30-ish% sure that Bladorthin was a Sindarin king ruling over the more primitive Elves in the region.

In fact, I think that Bladorthin was one of the Sindarin adventurers (perhaps he was one of the East Sindar living east of Doriath, a folk who raised pigs, sheep and cattle as well as engaging in the cultivation of numerous agricultural goods, such as wheat and barley) -- after all, these people lived on wide open plains east of Doriath (most likely Estolad), and only nominally accepted Thingol's authority.


So, after the end of the First Age and the beginning of the Second Age, I imagine Bladorthin and his followers didn't look fondly on mingling with the Noldor - so they embarked eastward, along with Amdir and Oropher/Thranduil.

However, given the fact that Amdir, Oropher and Thranduil were used to living in the great forests of Doriath, it is only natural that they picked the woods of Lothlorien and Greenwood the Great, respectively.


But...what about people like Bladorthin (PSA! - of course, this is all pure speculation) - whose name is most certainly Elvish (probably 'Noldorin' or 'Gnomish' - a precursor to 'Sindarin'). If he really is one of the East Sindar, it would make sense that he would be avoiding woods - much preferring wide open fields and prairies.

Even the name 'Bladorthin' (while originally used as a name for Gandalf in the writing of The Hobbit), while not completely clear, does give us some hints - and to quote John D. Rateliff, the author of The History of The Hobbit:

John D. Rateliff, noting that Tolkien never explained the meaning of Bladorthin, identifies the name as "clearly Gnomish (or perhaps Noldorin)".

The Gnomish element blador "probably applies to wide open country" (cf. Bladorinand, an early name of Beleriand), whereas the element -thin likely has the meaning of "grey" (as in Thingol). This would give the translation "the Grey Country", "Grey Plains Fay", or "Grey Master of the Plains"

...I mean - what better name for a Sinda farmer and cattle-raiser in the wide open fields of Rhun (or close enough to it), than Grey Plains Fay or Grey Master of the Plains. (The more astute of you might see the blatant connection with all these 'Grey' references - after all, the word 'Sindar' literally means 'Grey-folk' in Quenya, but I digress.)


Which all leads me to my final argument against the Mannish (and especially Gondorian) interpretation of the inhabitants of Dorwinion: and it is the simple fact that when Tolkien was writing The Hobbit, THERE WAS NO GONDOR, much less the idea that Gondor spread so far into the east.

Don't get me wrong - Tolkien have might have retconned the issue afterwards, but I can find no evidence that he ever did such thing (more accurately, that he ever retconned the inhabitants of Dorwinion being subject to or colonized by Gondorians - and moreover, Gondor's control over Rhun was pretty tenuous and didn't last for that long: think about some backwater province at the far end of a vast, real-world empire, for example).



And before I end my rant, I'll just point to a pretty obscure passage from Parma Eldalamberon 17, p. 54: (mind you, this text is from a pretty late stage of Tolkien's writings)

Even so they were under 'Sindarin' rule or influence. Galadriel was Noldorin and Celeborn Sindarin (a kinsman of Thingol). Thranduil and Legolas are both Sindarin names. So are Haldir and Orophin in Lórien; whereas Rúmil is actually a 'learned' Quenya-name. In the Hobbit all names are translated except Galion (the Butler), Esgaroth and Dorwinion. Galion and Esgaroth are not Sindarin (though perhaps 'Sindarized' in shape) or are not recorded in Sindarin; but Dorwinion is Sindarin meaning "Young-land country" or Land of Gwinion. (It was probably far south down the River Running, and its Sindarin name a testimony to the spread of Sindarin: in this case expectable since the cultivation of vines was not known originally to the Nandor or Avari.)

- emphasis mine.

Mind you - the highlighted passage isn't exactly the smoking gun - but I have a strong hunch that the Sindar have helped the Nandor/Avari living in the area of the Sea of Rhun, if not in Dorwinion itself.

[Mithadan]

Arvegil145, an interesting post. You have caused me to do two things; (1) I spent time on a Saturday trying to remember where I had seen a reference to Dorwinion; and (2) I again bemoan the fact that I do not have a copy of PE 17 (any suggestions on where I might find a copy?).

The name Bladorthin appears only in the Hobbit. We know little about him. He was a king. He ordered expensive spears from Erebor and they were never delivered. He died. Because Erebor was a Third Age kingdom, it can be assumed that Bladorthin lived during that time. Whether he was an Elf or a Man (apparent etymology of his name aside) is unknown, as is the location and name of his kingdom. We can speculate about his history, but, so far as I know, there is no basis to confirm any theory.

In works published during JRRT's lifetime, Dorwinion appears only in The Hobbit, and is briefly mentioned a a place having vineyards and producing superior wine. Fonstad's Atlas places it near the Sea of Rhun, not unlike what is mentioned in PE 17. The Atlas was published several years after Tolkien passed away, and Fonstad's source for this location is unclear.

However, Dorwinion is mentioned in HoME 5 (thank you, HoME 13, I knew I saw this reference somewhere). In the concluding paragraph of the Quenta Silmarillion (c. 1938), the "meads" of Dorwinion are mentioned in connection with Avallon and Eriol/Aelfwine's travel into the West. CT believed that Dorwinion (at that time) was located in Tol Eressea. We can assume that Dorwinion, "land of wine," is a bit generic in nature. Wine produced in Tol Eressea before the exile would not appear more than two ages later in a Sindarin/Nandorin realm. So there was likely a place in Middle Earth during the Third Age named or known as Dorwinion.

[Tar Elenion]

Tolkien's "annotated" map has Dorwinion located on it (article will explain the provenance):

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/...h-transcribed/

[Mithadan]

Yes, even Pauline Baynes' poster map has Dorwinion at a similar location, just east of the Sea of Rhun. Tolkien was generally fond of her work.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Yes, even Pauline Baynes' poster map has Dorwinion at a similar location, just east of the Sea of Rhun. Tolkien was generally fond of her work.

Did you mean west of the Sea of Rhun?

[Mithadan]

Yes, west. Apologies.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Yes, west. Apologies.

Alas, wine has been the Rhun of many a fine philosopher.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Yes, even Pauline Baynes' poster map has Dorwinion at a similar location, just east of the Sea of Rhun. Tolkien was generally fond of her work.

The (green) annotation on this map is Tolkien indicating to her where she should place Dorwinion on the 'poster map'.

[Mithadan]

Yes, Scull and Hammond's Chronology relates that on August 28, 1969, Tolkien mailed Pauline Baynes a copy of the LoTR map (that she had previously provided) with added annotations and corrections. The annotated version was provided in connection with her preparation of the "poster map" (Unwin's term). This, I assume, is the map shown in your link. JRRT first began corresponding with Baynes in 1949 when she was illustrating Farmer Giles.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It wasn't unknown to reproduce place-names from the Undying Lands in Middle-earth: ex. Lorien.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It wasn't unknown to reproduce place-names from the Undying Lands in Middle-earth: ex. Lorien.

I know...but - who were you replying to?



Also, off topic, since I'm already conversing with you - can you maybe take a look at the end of this thread: (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...t=19520&page=2)?

I mean...you actually edited the Chronology...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I know...but - who were you replying to?

To Mithadan:

However, Dorwinion is mentioned in HoME 5 (thank you, HoME 13, I knew I saw this reference somewhere). In the concluding paragraph of the Quenta Silmarillion (c. 1938), the "meads" of Dorwinion are mentioned in connection with Avallon and Eriol/Aelfwine's travel into the West. CT believed that Dorwinion (at that time) was located in Tol Eressea. We can assume that Dorwinion, "land of wine," is a bit generic in nature. Wine produced in Tol Eressea before the exile would not appear more than two ages later in a Sindarin/Nandorin realm. So there was likely a place in Middle Earth during the Third Age named or known as Dorwinion.

--------------------------------------------

However, as sharp a ret-con as your theory is, we also I think should consider that Elves tended to give places names in their own language whatever the locals called it (Hadhodrond, Belegost, Ro(c)han(n), Esgaroth, even Erebor) and we only hear "Dorwinion" from Thranduil's people. What the Sindarized Nandor called the "Land of Wine" could very well have been a Mannish country. The location though makes perfect sense; the bustling (former) trade of Erebor, Dale and Esgaroth must have primarily moved up and down the River Running (water always being a better and faster way to transport goods than overland before the advent of steam).