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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
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#1 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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Revised and Expanded Edition of the Letters
Apparently 150 letters had been cut from the first edition of Tolkien's Letters. Now to be included in a new revised edition.
available for pre-order through the various national Amazons. to be released January 23, 2024. http://https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=49265&fbclid=IwAR0NAaV_O1CC_ x-hi8Ho11We-6EEd2OM9kgyhbEI5v4gMLabugy1RyPPDrI
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#2 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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I have always wondered about the efficiency of the postal service in the Shire. Evidently, there were quite a few slowcoach hobbits delivering the mail.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#3 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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Thanks for the heads up, Bethberry!
This is actually quite intriguing. Letters is a fascinating combination of (1) correspondence to Tolkien's fans and critics regarding his writings including many fascinating nuggets of insight, and (2) correspondence to family and friends tending towards the personal, some providing glimpses of his life and personality and others revealing what could be characterized as the drudgery (as well as the benefits) of academia. The first category includes material regarding the process of drafting his works, musings on the underpinnings, philosophical as well as his inspirations, of Middle Earth. Regarding the latter, I wish I had a dollar for every time Tolkien apologized for being late about anything. It will be interesting to see an additional 150 letters, though I worry about why they were excluded when the first edition was published. I suspect all here will forgive me if I am a bit skeptical when I hear about "new" materials by Tolkien being published considering what has been released since HoME 12.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#4 |
Dead Serious
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I share Mithadan's scepticism about the real value of the expansion--this is very late going in the publication of Tolkien's original works, and I fully expect that anything "new" is going to be on the order of the nuggets in The Nature of Middle-earth.
But I was still glad to get The Nature of Middle-earth, and a fuller Letters (or a supplement, or a volume II) has been something I've wanted since about 2000, when I read the original volume for the first time and realised they hadn't published them ALL. So I'm excited, but in a very realistic way--I know I'll be spending 40 or 50 dollars on a hardcover with three-to-five minorly interesting tidbits in it.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#5 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Apparently this version with 500 letters is the original edition Carpenter and CRT prepared. But Unwins thought it was too long to have a hope of breaking even, so they insisted it be curt down in size. So, in one way, there's nothing "new." Call it the Director's Cut.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#6 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 334
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Wait, wasn't it supposed to come out in November this year?
Also, what does the "vision for publishing his 'Tales of the Three Ages'" mean exactly?
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#7 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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When is the release date?
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#8 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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I wonder where I got the January 2024 date in the first post.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 10-15-2023 at 08:03 PM. |
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#9 |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,743
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*Rubs hands in anticipation…*
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#10 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 334
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I would just like to add this summary of the changes made in the new Letters, courtesy of Tolkien Collector's Guide: https://www.tolkienguide.com/uploads...7cd2197837.pdf
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#11 | |
Dead Serious
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#12 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#13 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Just arrived; I'm pleased to say that it appears to have a much expanded and improved index (the old one was pretty marginal)
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#14 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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ruminations on some of the new letters
http://https://menelrond.blogspot.com/2023/11/tolkien-and-physical-economy-of-post.html?fbclid=IwAR2lXhXvrX6o2a-L3Jt9KgnrrZMwBIpv-z0a34onU-bgLtgMUPLV7f5pMJA
Note: This review is by a Tolkienist with considerable credibility.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#15 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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A lot of anger in that piece.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#16 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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I am surprised that there have been no reviews posted of the Expanded Edition. I have not yet purchased it. Any feedback?
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#17 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#18 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Well, it strikes me as odd to get heated over a man who's been dead half a century expressing viewpoints eighty years ago which would have been completely unremarkable at the time. Not many people write angrily about Cicero's views on slavery or Boniface VIII's take on religious libertiy. Comment? Sure. But anger? A little misplaced.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#19 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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Looking purely at the passage in the article Bethberry linked relating to the Legendarium:
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And the *missing* names! It's notably ridiculous to call Celebrian menopausal but ignore her mother, who is out there ruling Lorien and wielding an Elven ring. Or what about Gilraen, who has actual narrative appearances as a post-menopausal woman? Andreth is raised by someone in the comments on the post, and dismissed by the author as not aligning with Tolkien's view as interpreted from the letter. And should we count Nerdanel or Melian, on the same grounds as Celebrian - immortal woman past the Time of the Children? In response to the Andreth comment (which noted that her wisdom indicates 'He may have been more understanding of it than you perceive him to be in this letter'), the author says: Quote:
hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 12-10-2023 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Clarified what I'm responding to. |
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#20 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Treading the Narrow Way
Posts: 187
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 |
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#21 |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
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It's honestly fascinating to me how whenever someone points out that Tolkien may have said, done or written something that jars with progressive values (or even, as in this case, the lived experience of many readers) people either go up in flames or casually shrug it off. Why not discuss his shortcomings as well as his merits?
It's undeniably true, I think, that Tolkien's work is short of a Crone - an elderly female fgure of wisdom and power who could hold a candle to men like Théoden, Denethor, Gandalf, heck, even Saruman. On the other side of the scales, we have Lobelia and Ioreth: the first satirised until she redeems herself with an act of unexpected courage, the second a self-important busybody who just happens to remember a bit of lore which actually saves the lives of some really important people. Hardly the same league. Galadriel might have filled that vacuum, but doesn't, for the same reason that Míriel, Celebrían, Nerdanel or Melian don't: Elves aren't subject to physical ageing. Elven women may be 3000 years old and long past taking interest in procreation, but they'll still be beautiful - rosy-cheeked, lily-necked, graceful in dance, nightingale-voiced, you name it (although I hope their breath doesn't really smell like hay). Apparently a woman past childbearing can only be an important figure in Middle-earth if she's still physically attractive. That's really sad.
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#22 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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In my case, the article author said to read the letter, so I'm holding fire until I can.
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- Andreth is 48 when she holds what I think is the longest single dialogue in Tolkien. The elves, including Finrod, literally call her "Wise-heart". - Morwen is in her early 50s when she flees to Doriath and when she loses Nienor, and her late 50s when she dies. Not necessarily wise, but strong-willed, although ultimately she just ups and dies without doing anything. - Aerin's age is unknown, but I'm putting her here because being more than her physical attractiveness is her whole point. She was forced into marriage for Brodda to make an heir on her, but ended up burning everything down. - Gilraen, I think I said above, has two appearances in her old age. She's specifically noted as having some measure of the foresight of her people. What's striking about this list is that three of them succumb to some form of despair and die. Lobelia does the same, so I feel like Tolkien's portrayal of elderly mortal women is that they can often be wise or foresighted (include Ioreth or not as you choose), but they are (almost) always struck by melancholy or grief. Andreth has that in spades - and, of course, so do Galadriel and Melian, by the end of their tales. (And Arwen...) And that's because he makes them *lose everyone*. Andreth, Morwen, Aerin, Gilraen, Lobelia, Melian, and Arwen are all shown after they lose the most important people in their lives (Andreth and Gilraen by giving them up to a different fate). Tolkien kind of writes like "grief at losing your family" is a specific affliction of elderly women - in men, it seems to often come up as anger instead (looking at you, Turin and Hurin and Maeglin), while other times it's brushed off (does Theodred even get a *mention* from Theoden? Do Frodo, Eomer, or Tuor really notice their parents being dead?). Occasionally you get a Denethor going mad, but it's a very different grief to Morwen, or Gilraen. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#23 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Treading the Narrow Way
Posts: 187
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I fear that I cannot add much to this discussion.
But it seems wrong to treat the lack of prominent older female characters in Tolkien's work as some sort of grievous insult to women. Tolkien wrote about what he knew and understood (language and myth, being things he knew very well, and as such they are enormous elements in his works). He can hardly be blamed for not writing all manner and variety of female characters when he was a man himself, and therefore not well-versed in the feminine.
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 |
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#24 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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Quote:
But in regards to the article, the discussion here has prompted me to read it, though I am not going to read the Letters collection. I find the author's vehement feminism and fight against decrying of menopause quite amusing: Quote:
![]() I see a lot of desire to be offended and propagate the offendedness as far as it would go in this article, twisting both facts of life and legendarium (Miriel???) to serve the cause. There was one quoted line that irked me, the one about women lacking introspection. That I cannot agree with or justify, and if that was Tolkien's experience of women in his life - then I feel bad for him. But equally, I don't see a trend of self-blind Scarlett O'Haras running through the legendarium. This one I would find interesting to pick through. In fact, does Tolkien have any character lacking in introspection? Feanor perhaps? But I digress again. Besides this point, I find the rest to be blown out of proportion to find fault with something where I see no fault.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#25 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Surely this is the sort of thing to be discussed dispassionately? What I am hearing here, as so often these days, is an echo of the Pharisee in Luke, "God, I thank thee, that I am not as this publican;" there seems to be a great deal of dopamine released when loudly hanging scarlet letters.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#26 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Dec 2023
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 4
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In his Letter 131 (late 1951) addressed to Milton Waldman, Tolkien once again identified the beginning of the First Age with the Awakening of the Elves. There's the quote: "The History of the Eldar (Englished as ‘Elves’, but the pre-Shakespearian sense is intended), or Silmarillion proper. Nexus of legends, and stories in chronological order, into which some major tales are woven. Contains the ‘history’ of the First Age, from the coming of the Eldar to its end with overthrow of Morgoth-melkor, the first Dark Lord. Called The Silmarillion, because most of the history and tales are grouped about or refer to the Three Great Jewels of Fëanor (the Silmarils), their making, theft, the war for their recovery, and their final loss." Now that's finally well established that the First Age began with the Awakening, not the first sunrise.
Last edited by Ar-Zigűr; 12-24-2023 at 06:34 AM. |
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#27 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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Well this menopausal woman has just got the expanded letters for Christmas. Since I am home alone with the cats and am not obliged to do unspeakable things to poultry, I shall spend the day reading them.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#28 | ||||||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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I also got the NuLetters for Christmas, and wanted to take a look at the letter mentioned in the article Bethberry linked. I don't think the article gives the number, but it's 38a.
What seems to have happened is that Michael Tolkien's regiment had moved, and Michael had written to his girlfriend "A." (not his future wife, who he would meet the next year) to tell her of the move. She had passed the news on to her family, who (living near the Tolkiens) had mentioned it to them - before they heard it from Michael. Edith then wrote to Michael; JRRT wasn't privy to what she said, but Michael's reply a) was clearly a grovelling apology, and b) mentioned that Edith had been very negative about his relationship with A. It seems Michael also felt his father disapproved of A., though this may be from previous contact between them. So JRRT is writing to smooth things over and try to restore what he thinks should be proper family relations. The review is right that JRRT doesn't come over that well in 38a. His comments on why his son might feel a bit peeved at him range between self-righteous and the classic "oh haha I was only joking": Quote:
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His advice on romance is probably fine, though I doubt "either of you might change so don't count on it lasting" sank in. And then we come to his comments on Edith, which are indeed pretty bad. The general commentary on mothers is eeeesh: Quote:
![]() Then we come to the passage that formed the centre of the article, and... basically... it's fine? Quote:
Does it still come across a bit condescending? In light of the previous passage about women's lack of introspection, yes. But all the parts about how Michael needs to forgive and forget are not Edith being "blatantly objectified, and perhaps even infantilised" - they're JRRT trying to keep his son from holding a grudge after Edith bit his head off. And it's not all negative: Quote:
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#29 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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Iiiinteresting. Thank you for posting, Hui.
My first impression is indeed that the first part of the letter sounds worse than the second, as you say. And still to me the main (or perhaps only?) problematic assertion is with regards to introspection. This conclusion stuck to me as so odd, I did a little experiment. I asked several people in my acquaintance whether they thought men or women were more introspective. And interestingly, if I could persuade people to come out of the non-committal "it's equal, gender doesn't matter, etc" zone and share their actual thoughts... Males usually thought men are more inteospective, while females thought women were. What a conundrum. A case of better-than-average effect?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#30 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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I've been waiting to reply until I receive the "Nuletters" (a Christmas gift ordered that apparently has not yet been delivered) so I thank Huinesoron for responding after reading the letter.
I will respond more fully once I receive the book but for now let me correct a slight error. Quote:
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'tis late tonight but perhaps I can return tomorrow to address some other points in the posts here before I see the letter myself. I posted the link because I thought it might encourage discussion. Good to see that it has!
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#31 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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Well, I'm back. And have the NuLetters in hand. (I like that spelling very much, thanks hS
In rereading the comments here, I find it striking that the initial and possibly major points made relate not to the topic of the blog post but to the tone of the author. She is allegedly some sort of shrew who has an axe to grind against cis men of another time, almost a feminazi. My initial response of "really?" still holds up. It's like attacking the messenger rather than the message, or, in the old rhetorical nomenclature, ad hominem attack, although in this case it isn't against the man. Larsen is sharp, yes, but hardly antagonistic to Tolkien; her point is not to, as she says, pillory him for not being modern or progressive. In fact, as she makes clear in the first paragraph, she is interested in showing how some current views of him as "being ahead of his time" are misplaced; she is more interested in seeing how he relates to his own time, and what those values may or may not be. So she is putting her reading of the nuletter to Michael in the context of critical commentary on Tolkien. If you don't like the word Larsen uses, "cringeworthy", then think embarassing or awkward. Yes, he was a man of his time. Accept him for that. The nuletter (number 38a) is clearly about family relations and should be read also in the context of the very long letter 43 where Tolkien offers fatherly advice about marriage as companions in a shipwreck. (As an aside, Michael's loves in question in the two letters are different women, A in the first and Joan Griffiths in the second, who he would go on to marry.) The difficulty appears to have been that Edith wrote a letter to Michael after his girlfriend's parent informed the Tolkiens where Michael, then currently in training for the war, had been reposted. This apparently was an embarrassment, that others had been informed before the parents, and Tolkien is writing to Michael how to handle the situation. Of course we don't have Edith's letter to read, so we don't know what she wrote, and we don't have Michael's letter to Tolkien to see what prompted letter 38a. It is quite difficult, after decades, to try to decipher family relationships. However, it appears that Tolkien is trying to excuse Edith for what she wrote, or provide reasons for her comments. Did Tolkien speak with Edith about this situation? It does not appear so. In any case, what we have are Tolkien's thoughts about his wife in mid life. They are patronising and infantalising. Tolkien spends more time using Edith's lack of attendance to the Catholic faith (which he demanded she convert to despite the fact that the Church herself did not require partners to become Catholic (only to bring up children in the Catholic faith); here Tolkien gives no sign of introspection (I used that word in particular) about how the loss of her own personal faith in the Anglican church may have left Edith lonely and in a strange land--certainly she found confession to a strange man awkward), and then this bit about "women's economy" and menopause. He spends time surmising how women feel about other women who are attractive to their sons, despite saying later in the letter that Edith is quite "reconciled" to the relationship. His thoughts are entirely consistent with common cis men's patronising attitudes towards women at the time; they display very little introspection or sympathy for what Edith might have been feeling and instead offers social/cultural cliches. What Tolkien does not express is any idea how Edith might be very concerned about her son because he is in military service during wartime and whose very life could be at risk. (Michael was in fact injured during a training exercise.) And how it felt to have other people report about him concerning something he had not told his parents. Larsen provides six--yes, six--references to studies on menopause, so she isn't talking hot air, or merely her opinion, or post modern revisionist complaints about men in earlier times. Larsen is a scientist, and evidence, true evidence and research, are both her bread and butter and her MO in her scientific research and in her articles on Tolkien. To demonstrate her respect for Tolkien, here is her article on the aurora in the Father Christmas Letters, "Rayed Arcs and the ‘Rory Bory Aylis’: Primary World Aurorae and Tolkien’s 'Father Christmas Letters'": http://https://scholar.valpo.edu/journaloftolkienresearch/vol18/iss1/5/ Suffice to say I think many of the claims made here about her blog are misguided attacks on her rather than on what she shows Tolkien thought about his wife at mid life. Like me, she is a big fan of Tolkien, but that does not mean that either of us engage in idealising a favourite author. Authors are human and have feet of clay. EDIT: Haven't had time to do a thorough reading of the NuLetters. It is a very handsome hardcover, approximately 50,000 words more than what the original had been reduced to, with 150 new letters and 45 of the original letters newly expanded, a hefty book. When I have time I will do a quick search for letter numbers that have been appended a letter after the original number, as in 38a with the letter in question. Particularly welcome is the new and expanded Index by Wayne G Hammond and Christina Scull (best known for their JRR Tolkien companion and Guide as well as their Reader's Guide to LotR). Mithadan had asked about reviews of the new edition: an extended one with particular details can be found at Tolkien Collectors' Guide: http://https://www.tolkienguide.com/...forumpost52679
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 01-25-2024 at 08:18 AM. |
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