Gothmog - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-13-2003, 02:40 PM

I don't understand how Gothmog took over after the Witch King of Angmar died. Wasn't Gothmog a balrog in the first or second age? Please explain what happened.

lord of dor-lomin · 01-13-2003, 03:02 PM

A search of old threads would yield all the answers you need, but I'll summarize.

There's two Gothmogs.

1. A balrog that Ecthelion killed.

2. A bad man who rose to power among Sauron's forces around the time of the war of the ring.

There's two. That answer your question?

01-13-2003, 03:04 PM

Yea now i get it thanks

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-14-2003, 04:56 AM

We don't actually know who the second Gothmog is. He could have been a Orc captain, a man or maybe even a Boldog (Lesser powerful Maia who took the shapes of Orcs) and some claim he was a Nazgul.

the phantom · 01-14-2003, 09:56 AM

Actually, (and I can't remember where right now, and I don't have time to look, it might've been in the appendices? or maybe even in LOTR text?) I recall reading that the second Gothmog was in fact a man.

HCIsland · 01-14-2003, 10:46 AM

Yup, I'm pretty sure that's right in the text of LoTR.

H.C.

Manwe Sulimo · 01-14-2003, 03:53 PM

Nowhere in LotR is it specified. He is only mentioned once, as the "Lieutenant of Minas Morgul" (the Witch-king was the "Captain of Minas Morgul"). I personally think that he was the third Nazgûl (after the Witch-king and Khamûl, who was the Captain or Lieutenant of Dol Guldur).

the phantom · 01-15-2003, 09:49 PM

This is from ROTK...

"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc."

He's a man. A black Numenorean to be specific.

01-15-2003, 09:52 PM

Where does it say that the mouth of sauron is Gothmog? They say that his name has been forgotten.

Legolas · 01-16-2003, 09:00 AM

the phantom - Gothmog and the Mouth of Sauron are not the same person.

Tolkien never said what Gothmog is.

I presume he is a man.

The Mouth of Sauron, a man, was Lieutenant of Barad-dur, so it seems likely that the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, Gothmog, would be a man too. Someone to watch over the tower when the Nazgul went out galivanting.

These points have been discussed numerous times. If you use the search function of this forum (found in the upper right corner with the links to the faq, forum home, et. al), you'll find discussions of Gothmog.

[ January 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

lord of dor-lomin · 01-16-2003, 09:31 AM

Hey Legalos, I went by the phantom's house today. He sends his apologies on his oversight. He just had six wisdom teeth (yes, he has, or had, six) removed on Tuesday. He was so baked from the drugs they gave him that he got Gothmog and The Mouth of Sauron confused on his first post, and when he went back to post the next day he thought he remembered that the topic actually WAS the Mouth of Sauron instead of Gothmog.

I made him promise 1) he'd read a thread carefully before posting and 2) he'd NEVER post when he can't stay awake or remember what his name is. (lol, when I called him after his operation and he said "Hello", I said "Is that you, Philip" and he said "Philip? Um...oh yeah, yeah, that's me.")

Sorry, phantom, but I couldn't help myself!! (And I told everyone in our classes that we got in a fight and I kicked your butt and that's why you're gone and you're gonna show up with a swollen mouth!! Ha ha!!)

01-13-2003, 02:40 PM	#1
Pipi Guest Posts: n/a	Gothmog I don't understand how Gothmog took over after the Witch King of Angmar died. Wasn't Gothmog a balrog in the first or second age? Please explain what happened.

01-13-2003, 03:02 PM	#2
lord of dor-lomin Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: dor-lomin, of course Posts: 167	A search of old threads would yield all the answers you need, but I'll summarize. There's two Gothmogs. 1. A balrog that Ecthelion killed. 2. A bad man who rose to power among Sauron's forces around the time of the war of the ring. There's two. That answer your question? __________________ I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure.

01-14-2003, 04:56 AM	#4
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	We don't actually know who the second Gothmog is. He could have been a Orc captain, a man or maybe even a Boldog (Lesser powerful Maia who took the shapes of Orcs) and some claim he was a Nazgul. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-14-2003, 09:56 AM	#5
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Actually, (and I can't remember where right now, and I don't have time to look, it might've been in the appendices? or maybe even in LOTR text?) I recall reading that the second Gothmog was in fact a man. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

01-14-2003, 10:46 AM	#6
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Yup, I'm pretty sure that's right in the text of LoTR. H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-13-2003, 03:04 PM	#3
Pipi Guest Posts: n/a	Yea now i get it thanks

01-14-2003, 03:53 PM	#7
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Nowhere in LotR is it specified. He is only mentioned once, as the "Lieutenant of Minas Morgul" (the Witch-king was the "Captain of Minas Morgul"). I personally think that he was the third Nazgûl (after the Witch-king and Khamûl, who was the Captain or Lieutenant of Dol Guldur). __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-15-2003, 09:49 PM	#8
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	This is from ROTK... "The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc." He's a man. A black Numenorean to be specific. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

01-15-2003, 09:52 PM	#9
Pipi Guest Posts: n/a	Where does it say that the mouth of sauron is Gothmog? They say that his name has been forgotten.

01-16-2003, 09:00 AM	#10
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	the phantom - Gothmog and the Mouth of Sauron are not the same person. Tolkien never said what Gothmog is. I presume he is a man. The Mouth of Sauron, a man, was Lieutenant of Barad-dur, so it seems likely that the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, Gothmog, would be a man too. Someone to watch over the tower when the Nazgul went out galivanting. These points have been discussed numerous times. If you use the search function of this forum (found in the upper right corner with the links to the faq, forum home, et. al), you'll find discussions of Gothmog. [ January 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-16-2003, 09:31 AM	#11
lord of dor-lomin Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: dor-lomin, of course Posts: 167	Hey Legalos, I went by the phantom's house today. He sends his apologies on his oversight. He just had six wisdom teeth (yes, he has, or had, six) removed on Tuesday. He was so baked from the drugs they gave him that he got Gothmog and The Mouth of Sauron confused on his first post, and when he went back to post the next day he thought he remembered that the topic actually WAS the Mouth of Sauron instead of Gothmog. I made him promise 1) he'd read a thread carefully before posting and 2) he'd NEVER post when he can't stay awake or remember what his name is. (lol, when I called him after his operation and he said "Hello", I said "Is that you, Philip" and he said "Philip? Um...oh yeah, yeah, that's me.") Sorry, phantom, but I couldn't help myself!! (And I told everyone in our classes that we got in a fight and I kicked your butt and that's why you're gone and you're gonna show up with a swollen mouth!! Ha ha!!) __________________ I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure.