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01-16-2013, 08:14 AM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2010
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Dagor Dagorath/Turin returning?
I´m confused with all the versions of the last battle. In one it is said that Turin will return either from Mandos or from beyond the circles f the world. In another version Turin will return in the War of Wrath, kills a dragon and then left for ever the circles of the world and will not appear in the Dagor Dagorath, insead of him Eonwe will end Morgoth.
And what is all that with Turin to be counted among the gods? I´m not sure, in an old tale? Turin and Ninior are counted as Valar even before the last battle, while in the version Turin takes part in the battle he will become a Valar (nothing is said of Ninior). I couldn´t really find what Tolkiens final view on that matter was. Is it right that the version where he takes part in the battle and becomes a Valar is an old one and the other version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle and therefore doesn´t become a Valar is a later version? Which version do you prefer? The version where he becomes a god or the version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle? |
01-16-2013, 11:46 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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If I recall correctly, the 'last' reference (according to the external chronology) concerns Turin returning to the War of Wrath to slay Ancalagon... or at least Christopher Tolkien has argued that this is the meaning of the Andreth prophecy.
Perhaps notable is that the prophecy is given to Andreth. My feeling is that Tolkien was going to retain some form of a final battle, but it was not to be characterized as a prophecy given by Mandos, and was rather to be imagined as a Mannish idea. |
01-16-2013, 12:07 PM | #3 | |
Late Istar
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- The oldest version (from the Lost Tales) is that Turin takes part in the final battle, kills Morgoth, and becomes a Vala. - This was changed in the 1937 QS so that Turin still takes part in the final battle and still kills Morgoth, but he is not counted as one of the Valar. Instead, he 'returns from the halls of Mandos'. - In the cursory 1950s revisions to this part of QS, 'from the halls of Mandos' became 'from the doom of Men', the words 'and Beren Camlost' were inserted, and then an X was drawn through the whole section. Presumably, we see Tolkien trying out different ideas here. - The 1950s Valaquenta ends with a statement that Mandos has not said anything about the end of the world (this statement was transplanted to the end of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' in the 1977 published Silmarillion). So it appears that the prophecy of Mandos was at this point rejected, at least from the 'Quenta Silmarillion' tradition. - Texts from the late 1950s found in HoMe X (including the 'Athrabeth') talk in a general way about 'Arda Remade', suggesting that some idea of an 'end of times' prophecy still existed. - A text from c. 1968, 'The Problem of Ros', mentions the prophecy of Andreth: that Turin will return at the end of the First Age to kill Ancalagon. - In the 1972 note and alliterative fragment on the Istari (found in UT), mention is made of the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will return and Manwe will descend from Taniquetil, suggesting that this last battle, as distinct from the prophecy concerning Turin, had still not been entirely rejected. Edit: I was wrong about the date of the note and alliterative fragment; they are from before 1972 and, quite likely, before the 1968 'Problem of Ros'. Last edited by Aiwendil; 01-20-2013 at 10:29 AM. |
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01-16-2013, 12:59 PM | #4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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01-16-2013, 01:58 PM | #5 | ||
Late Istar
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Looking at UT now, I realize the text I had in mind is more 'note' than 'essay' (it seems to be associated with the brief narrative of the choosing of the Istari). The relevant bits:
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01-17-2013, 08:37 AM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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OK that's what I guessed, thanks, but neither of these two can be dated to 1972 I think... or at least we don't know that, correct?
I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the Andreth prophecy might be the 'latest' reference which includes Turin, but I'm not sure if it's the latest hint at some sort of final battle. |
01-17-2013, 05:07 PM | #7 | |
Late Istar
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You know, I think you are right, and I have been misinterpreting what Christopher Tolkien says about the dating of these texts. I had thought that when he said:
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One interesting result of this would be that if the narrative is definitely from before 1972, then the latest version of the Blue Wizards' names was clearly 'Morinehtar' and 'Romestamo', not the more popular 'Alatar' and 'Pallando'. (Maybe other people already knew this, but I had always thought it was unclear which set of names was later.) |
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01-18-2013, 08:08 AM | #8 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Yes I agree with all that, meaning that's how I interpret the chronology.
I think we have Morinehtar and Romestar/Romestamo because, or at least possibly because, Tolkien could not find the older text at the moment, and couldn't remember the old names (again at the moment), so he invented new names. I also think 'Blue Wizards' is earlier than Tolkien (in a letter) doubting the 'other two' had distinctive colours, and so (unless there is something else), this 'Blue Wizards' description may also be more popular than the 'other two'... ... although it's not hard to see why, if so I note that Hammond and Scull write that with the letter Tolkien seems to have forgotten about these sea blue robes and so on. Possibly of course, but this seems to confirm that Tolkien never again referrred to these Wizards as blue. That we know of so far? Anyway I digress |
01-19-2013, 11:37 PM | #9 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative. As for the Dagor Dagorath, I am not sure Tolkien disregarded the idea rather than dropped the prophecy coming from Mandos. The Numenoreans certainly must have persevered with a prophecy about his return, but as we see from the Silmarillion, they were confused about a great deal. When Tolkien discusses Morgoth regaining strength and re-entering Arda he claims thats it is possible since his spirit would once again grow in time. When you add in the very late reference from the essay on Istari, then it does appear there was some vague final battle in Tolkien's mind, but the details of how this was to be known to the world was vague. |
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01-20-2013, 10:28 AM | #10 | |
Late Istar
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01-20-2013, 11:13 AM | #11 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I personally think that Turin should be the one to deal Morgoth his death blow. As cellurdur said, his tale it so tragic, it makes sense (and poetic justice) that Turin should be the one.
I am perfectly happy with Earendil defeating Ancalagon, though. I would not want Turin to take that part.
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01-20-2013, 02:51 PM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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01-20-2013, 03:55 PM | #13 | |
Haunting Spirit
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01-20-2013, 04:01 PM | #14 | ||
Late Istar
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01-20-2013, 05:04 PM | #15 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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01-21-2013, 09:27 AM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Turin becoming a Valar seems a bit bizarre. They were the
equivalent of angelic spirits. To have a human become one is rather "unChricstian" if you will, for Tolkien's pre-Christian Christian theological worldview of Middle-earth. I imagine he was just playing around with various scenarios, as he was wont to do.
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01-21-2013, 01:37 PM | #17 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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01-21-2013, 02:40 PM | #18 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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At any rate, I don't see Túrin's act, heroic as it was, as "holiness". He did it because Glauring was coming for him, and would have killed all of Brethil in the process. Bard the Bowman killed a dragon, and managed to do so without committing murder on a lame man afterwards. Does he get to be a Vala too?
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01-21-2013, 02:59 PM | #19 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Turin and his family are the only people to ever be cursed by Morgoth personally. In some ways Morgoth really was the master of Arda. Since everything in Arda to a greater or lesser extent was influenced by his will. In other matters also it seemed that fortune was unfriendly to him, so that often what he designed went awry, and what he desired he did not gain:-The Children of Hurin Now that was in Doriath protected by Melian's girdle. Even so with all that he had against him nobody except Luthien, Beren and Earendil accomplished more in the war against Morgoth. Turin had his faults and just like Morwen perhaps pride was his greatest flaw, but to live with Morgoth's foot on your neck since childhood is no easy task. Last edited by cellurdur; 01-21-2013 at 03:04 PM. |
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01-21-2013, 06:36 PM | #20 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I don't think I like that idea either. Firstly, from the more scientific perspective, you can't turn an apple into an orange. You can't make a man, born in the middle of the FA, into a Vala who created the world. Turin's Valarishness would have been only half-true (ie he could have the power and be granted eternal life, but not the historical/past part). And secondly, because the story needs closure, not a happily-ever-after. When Turin avenges his family, I personally think that he would consider himself fully free of this world, and, having no more purpose in it (as well as finding this satisfaction of achieving the purpose - inner peace?), he would not linger in it.
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01-22-2013, 01:22 AM | #21 | |
Wight
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As for the actual changing of the nature of a being (edain to ainu), if that were actually contemplated by Tolkien (in the final story version), I think that could ONLY be accomplished by Eru, and that "IF" (a big "if") Eru chose in his wisdom to do so, he (and he alone) COULD do so. Whether that would make for a satisfying storyline is a different question. One part of the matter that intrigues me (i.e. of the story line where Turin "does" come back and slay Morgoth) is that Morgoth, in cursing Hurin's line and following Turin with such ferocity, was then actually training and raising up the tool of his own destruction. Building in Turin such a resolve that his Fea refused to leave Arda and remained in Mandos for the rest of Time - UNTIL the Dagorath and the coming of the end "when Melkor should return". Oh the Irony!! Morgoth, you would have been better off yourself had you left Turin alone and let him live out his life unmolested. |
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01-22-2013, 06:34 AM | #22 | |
Odinic Wanderer
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Slightly Confused
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Tulkas entered Arda latter than the other Valar, but he is still one of them. |
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01-22-2013, 08:13 AM | #23 |
Dead Serious
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While the "apples can't turn into oranges" argument has merit, it doesn't actually work in Middle-earth because at least one orange turns into an apple (Lúthien's spirit acquires the Doom of Men), one apple turns into an orange (Tuor acquires the Doom of the Elves) and a few are Schrodinger's Fruits--Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.
So within the rules of Arda, fruit can change its species in certain extraordinary circumstances--and I think we can all agree that the Dagor Dagorath is an extraordinary circumstance. Obviously, there's still a distinction between being counted as a different type of Eruhin and being counted as a Vala, but there's another angle to consider. The Valar, after all, are all Ainur. In "species" they are no different from the Ainur who remained with Eru or the lesser Ainur known as the Maiar. The question then is whether the essential fact of being a Vala their species of spirit to be Ainu or whether it is solely due to power or authority they exercise, irrespective of species--note, after all, that Melkor was once considered one of the Valar, but lost his "title," one might say, when he turned evil.
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02-03-2013, 11:45 AM | #24 |
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This is an issue that fascinates me as a long-time reader of Tolkien and as a fan of Túrin's story. In a way I feel Túrin's tale is somewhat incomplete without knowing that he, of all the Eldar and Edain, has the honour of slaying Morgoth in the end. Unfortunately Tolkien did not leave us with a final version of the Dagor Dagorath, for I'd love to see how it would have ended up in a polished form, perhaps at the end of The Slmarillion.
As far as the issue of Túrin's apotheosis goes, I would say that since it was an element in the earliest version but subsequently dropped from all others suggests that we can discredit it as a simple curious piece of trivia. |
09-29-2013, 07:23 PM | #25 |
Newly Deceased
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I do not want Turin to become a Vala. Somehow it would ring false.
I did not like Turin very much. Somehow his arrogance rubbed me the wrong way and at points I was literally satisfied when he was being punished especially after Nargothrond fell. But I do think he deserves the right to face if not kill Morgoth. |
10-16-2013, 09:00 AM | #26 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is."
It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative. Surely not *impossible*; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men.
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10-16-2013, 06:57 PM | #27 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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10-17-2013, 09:48 AM | #28 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Of course, the REAL reality is that the War of Wrath narrative was quite old and unrevised, but CT had to use it because there was nothing newer; and while he naturally changed Fionwe > Eonwe etc. to fit later conceptions, the ultimate doom of Turin was too vague to justify ret-conning something in
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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