Bismarck Statue = The Argonauts. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Juicy-Sweet · 12-20-2012, 06:11 PM

A few years ago I spend a day in Hamburg - i was just walking around St. Pauli without a map, just checking out the city as I walked along.

I was in some park, and suddenly between the trees I saw a great pillar rise like a tower to meet me. A giant it seemed to me, a vast grey figure silent but threatening. Then I saw that it was indeed shaped and fashioned: the craft and power of old had wrought upon it, and still it preserved through the suns and rains of forgotten years the mighty likenesses in which it had been hewn. Upon a great pedestal founded on a hill stood a great Chancellor of stone: still with blurred eyes and crannied brows he frowned towards France. He was leaned upon a great sword. Great power and majesty they still wore, the silent warden of a longvanished Empire. Awe and fear fell upon me.

Indeed, in Hamburg someone constructed a 35 metres high granite statue of Bismarck, that instantly reminded me of the argonauts the Fellowshio sailed through. It was built in 1906. It's SO similar that I think Tolkien based the argonauts on this statue. The feel of it is exactly the same.

So does anyone know if he ever went to Hamburg? Barring that, he might have seen in in a newspaper or something in 1906 when it was erected.

If you happen to be in the vicinity I recommend Tolkien fans to pass by

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismarck_Monument_(Hamburg)

or google "hamburg bismarck monument"

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-06-2013, 05:39 PM

Tempting though it is to think that Tolkien based the pillars of the Argonath on a specific statue he had seen, I notice that Bismarck is holding a sword, with both of his hands clasped on the hilt and a shield at his feet as befits a commemorative work. The statues of Isildur and Anárion hold axes in their right hands, with their left hands extended in warning, as one would expect from a statue placed as a border marker. Other than the fact that all are large statues of armed men, I can't see that they have enough in common to suggest a direct inspiration, although I suppose that some illustrations of Tolkien may have been influenced by the German statue.

Juicy-Sweet · 12-21-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

Tempting though it is to think that Tolkien based the pillars of the Argonath on a specific statue he had seen, I notice that Bismarck is holding a sword, with both of his hands clasped on the hilt and a shield at his feet as befits a commemorative work. The statues of Isildur and Anárion hold axes in their right hands, with their left hands extended in warning, as one would expect from a statue placed as a border marker. Other than the fact that all are large statues of armed men, I can't see that they have enough in common to suggest a direct inspiration, although I suppose that some illustrations of Tolkien may have been influenced by the German statue.

The posture is different, true. And there's only one Bismarck but two argonauts

Yet the feel of the statue is so Argonaut-ish

"Stern warrior-king from the past". And the size is about right too. I think he got the idea from the statue and then, naturally, adapted it.

But sure, if there's no evidence of Tolkien going to Hamburg or reading about the statue in a newspaper or (I guess it was mentioned in the general media at 1905) When I made the thread I was sort of hoping someone knew he had made a trip to Hamburg but noone's biting, so it's just a hypothesis...

Formendacil · 12-22-2013, 07:42 AM

Interesting theory...

Like most theories, I suppose we can't prove or disprove it unless the never-quite-exhausted notes of Tolkien someday yield something to the effect of "awesome statue--but two would be better! Must include in the Hobbit sequel..."

Given Tolkien's own comments on the Númenóreans, namely that they were rather like the ancient Egyptians in their taste for megalithic sculpture (and over death, but that's less relevant here), I've always thought of the temple of Rameses II at Abu Simbel as something of an inspiration: matching megalithic statues of royal power on the banks of the river, but given a greater dramatic punch by being put on either bank, almost Colossus of Rhodes style, so that those entering the realm of Gondor would have to pass between.

But, of course, Tolkien himself notes the difficulty or impossibility of finding the sources for ideas, some of which have decomposed in the mind completely.

radagastly · 12-22-2013, 07:56 AM

By the way, I think you mean Argonath, not Argonauts. The Argonauts accompanied Jason on the Argo in search of the Golden Fleece.

Juicy-Sweet · 12-22-2013, 09:10 AM

Oh yeah Argonauth, sorry. Not a native English speaker and all that

12-20-2012, 06:11 PM	#1
Juicy-Sweet Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 49	Bismarck Statue = The Argonauts. A few years ago I spend a day in Hamburg - i was just walking around St. Pauli without a map, just checking out the city as I walked along. I was in some park, and suddenly between the trees I saw a great pillar rise like a tower to meet me. A giant it seemed to me, a vast grey figure silent but threatening. Then I saw that it was indeed shaped and fashioned: the craft and power of old had wrought upon it, and still it preserved through the suns and rains of forgotten years the mighty likenesses in which it had been hewn. Upon a great pedestal founded on a hill stood a great Chancellor of stone: still with blurred eyes and crannied brows he frowned towards France. He was leaned upon a great sword. Great power and majesty they still wore, the silent warden of a longvanished Empire. Awe and fear fell upon me. Indeed, in Hamburg someone constructed a 35 metres high granite statue of Bismarck, that instantly reminded me of the argonauts the Fellowshio sailed through. It was built in 1906. It's SO similar that I think Tolkien based the argonauts on this statue. The feel of it is exactly the same. So does anyone know if he ever went to Hamburg? Barring that, he might have seen in in a newspaper or something in 1906 when it was erected. If you happen to be in the vicinity I recommend Tolkien fans to pass by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismarck_Monument_(Hamburg) or google "hamburg bismarck monument"

01-06-2013, 05:39 PM	#2
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Tempting though it is to think that Tolkien based the pillars of the Argonath on a specific statue he had seen, I notice that Bismarck is holding a sword, with both of his hands clasped on the hilt and a shield at his feet as befits a commemorative work. The statues of Isildur and Anárion hold axes in their right hands, with their left hands extended in warning, as one would expect from a statue placed as a border marker. Other than the fact that all are large statues of armed men, I can't see that they have enough in common to suggest a direct inspiration, although I suppose that some illustrations of Tolkien may have been influenced by the German statue. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

12-22-2013, 07:42 AM	#4
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	Interesting theory... Like most theories, I suppose we can't prove or disprove it unless the never-quite-exhausted notes of Tolkien someday yield something to the effect of "awesome statue--but two would be better! Must include in the Hobbit sequel..." Given Tolkien's own comments on the Númenóreans, namely that they were rather like the ancient Egyptians in their taste for megalithic sculpture (and over death, but that's less relevant here), I've always thought of the temple of Rameses II at Abu Simbel as something of an inspiration: matching megalithic statues of royal power on the banks of the river, but given a greater dramatic punch by being put on either bank, almost Colossus of Rhodes style, so that those entering the realm of Gondor would have to pass between. But, of course, Tolkien himself notes the difficulty or impossibility of finding the sources for ideas, some of which have decomposed in the mind completely. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

12-22-2013, 07:56 AM	#5
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	By the way, I think you mean Argonath, not Argonauts. The Argonauts accompanied Jason on the Argo in search of the Golden Fleece. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

12-22-2013, 09:10 AM	#6
Juicy-Sweet Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 49	Oh yeah Argonauth, sorry. Not a native English speaker and all that