Game Thread - WW XCIIX - The Meaning Of Death

[Galadriel55]

Could you please do it? Just one more time! Please?

I don’t want to, and it’s nothing new to you.

Please? Just once more!

Very well. Last time! Let’s go find something good.

In the last years of Numenor the King’s hatred for the Firstborn and the Valar grew black, and with it grew the hatred for the Elendili. King Ar-Pharazon –

Oh, this is boring, and you know it – I will skip to the interesting part.

Then, sensing that the time was right, Amandil the Faithful of the line of Elros bade all those still faithful to the Valar to gather in a deseted village not far from Romenna. He bade them to come in a guise, so that should they chance upon the King’s Men, they would not be discovered and their purpose revealed. Amandil believed that whilst there is still one voice to cry for the cause, hope is not lost.

So on the right day a crowd of people came to the village, and they spoke freely to each other, saying that somehow the King must be shown the wrong of his ways. But there were four men who spoke not but listened carefully. These were no Elendili, and with no invitation they followed the crowd to the village. Being fooled by their own guises, the Faithful took no heed, and thus revealed themselves to the King’s Men.


Night1 begins. KMs may PM, Elendil – send me your names.

ALIVE:
Morsul
Nerwen
Inzil
Lottie
Shasta
Manwe
PomPom
The Phantom
sally
Eomer
Boro
Steve
Brin

DEAD:

Don’t freak out and bombard me with PMs about the 4 KM. There are 3. You’ll find out everything soon enough.

[Galadriel55]

It was nearing night-time, so all the people settled down in the abandoned houses. Eventually, most sank into a deep sleep. Only four were still wandering about silently, thinking, pondering.

It was nearing dawn when the four men happened to come together at a crossroads in the middle of the village, and they recognized each other, and they spoke quietly of what to do.

“There is only one thing we can do,” said the first. “Are we not the King’s Men? Let us ride fast to Romenna and alert Ar-Pharazon of this gathering!”

“Nay,” said the second. “That way we shall only do harm. The Elendili will miss us before we deliver our news, and they will know that something is afoot. They will flee and scatter, and we know not who they really are. What is it to the King that they have met, if they cannot be caught? Nay. We shall destroy this rag-tag gathering from within. We shall single out one of them each night, and the one we choose shall never see the light of day again. We shall be bloody, bold, and resolute; we shall laugh to scorn the power of the Faithful, for none of them shall find out that there are King’s Men among them, for all their strength in numbers and tricks of the mind! And even if they do – what fools! They are wearing guises! They would not be able to recognize us amongst themselves. Today I heard them talking, and they said that none of them know exactly who and how many are to arrive. We shall triumph over them and stomp them into their own confusion!”

“Faithful...” spat the third, “We’ll show them how to be Faithful...to our King!”

But... was there really no way the King’s Men could be defeated? Was there really no hope?

Of course there was, silly. Otherwise they wouldn’t make such a long story out of it. Listen.

Yet the third man was dubious and hesitant to join his voice with his fellows.

“Do you really mean to kill them?” he finally said. “Kill them in their beds? They are disloyal to our King, and deserve a punishment. They should be hanged in the city square for all to see what happens to traitors. But to murder them? I will not...”

“If you will not be with us,” the first man interrupted, “then you are against us. You are too lily-livered to deal them their lot. But we are not so; we are not afraid to give a supporter of the Elendili what he deserves. And he deserves no better than they. We start tonight.”

The fourth man’s eyes widened. Before he could make a sound, he felt a dagger strike deep into his chest.

“The first one is done, then,” said the third man, wiping his dagger clean on the inside of his sleeve. “Who shall be next?”

“We do not have time. The sun will be rising in mere minutes and the folk will be coming out of their shelters. We ought to hide the body.”

But it was too late already. People were waking and peering outside. The most that the King’s Men could now do is pretend that they have just come out too and found the body lying there.

The crowd gathered around the dying man. Someone asked what evil is come to this place. Someone gently placed a pillow under his head. Someone brought a cup of water and cloth for bandaging. But it was to no avail. They could not save him.

The man started coughing. He was trying to say something. Everyone drew closer to hear his faint voice.

And what did he say? Did he say the truth?

Be quiet, and you’ll find out.

“Elendili...” they heard, “not all of you are so. Fear to be betrayed from within, for there are three King’s Men among you here. Do not take off your disguises, for that is all that they need to find a place for you in Ar Pharazon’s dungeons. Find them and destroy them before they destroy you!”

Everyone was dismayed. “Who are the men? Who are they?”

The dying man’s eyes groped around the circle of faces, looking for the guilty ones that only he knew, searching, searching, searching... He was dead before he completed a circle. Three men standing on the outer edge of the circle exchanged meaningful looks.

The people mourned and lamented, but they knew the dead man was right. They had to find the three traitors. They decided to vote every day and cast a vote, and the person with the most votes they would lynch. Through talk and careful investigation they were sure they would be able to identify the three traitors among them. And they did not lose any time on hesitation.

Day1 begins. KM, stop PMing. Villagers, post! Isildur, you may send in a name.

ALIVE:

Morsul
Nerwen
Inzil
Lottie
Shasta
Manwe
PomPom
The Phantom
sally
Eomer
Boro
Steve
Brin

DEAD:
G55, the hesitant King’s Man (modess) – stabbed on Night1

[Inziladun]

Ah, how Númenor has fallen from the ways of the Edain of old! Holding to rebellion against the West, and with violence forcing evil upon all, that in defense of our lives we must ourselves kill, the King's Men debase us in spirit as they seek to destroy us in body!
Nevertheless, care we must take, as much as we can, that we destroy not ourselves, doing the work of the King's Men for them.

*whew*

With IC done, let's go. Since I'm first posting, that makes me a baddie, it seems. Who wants to be second and third to round out the evil ones?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Inzil

Since I'm first posting, that makes me a baddie, it seems. Who wants to be second and third to round out the evil ones?

Yes indeed! I was just about to post-> "Does posting first mean I found the body first? Uh-oh" or something similar.

[Nerwen]

Ah, well, I'll have to be third, then.

[Morsul the Dark]

IC: Forsooth a comrade hath been slain.
Why why is our quest now in vain
are we all now in peral
I fear some of us are feral
tread lightly friends
I fear more death before this ends.

Moving along:

Does fourth make me the nonexistent CC?

We have 3King's Men right?

and 13 players? That means if we do really bad and don't catch any of them we have 7 day/nights. Not much time.

[the phantom]

Time to look at the roles...

KING'S MEN- A standard wolf-pack here, with the usual behaviors to look for and bluffs they can use.

AMANDIL- Essentially an Ordo with the added bonus of potentially being able to prove himself through a reveal. If the other Gifteds die quickly his "power" becomes rather useless, but early on it's a nice consolation if he's offed to know that some Ordo will know to trust some Gifted.

Frankly it makes me wonder if Amandil shouldn't just be super bold right from the start. I mean, that way we won't lynch him and if the baddies kill him they know that the result will be Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion surviving the night plus a random Ordo will know to trust one of them due to the death-power.

Thoughts from others on an extremely early Amandil reveal?

ELENDIL- Now this role is very interesting. He'll easily be able to find out what his dream recipient thinks of his dream target, but he won't know whether to trust the recipient as he very well could've handed information to a Baddie.

As far as ensuring that Elendil gets the opportunity to see what his dream-recipient thinks of his dream-target, that's relatively easy to set up- everyone simply say "these 3 are evil" and list 3 names. Elendil then looks at the names provided by the recipient and if his dream-target isn't there then the recipient is saying "they're good" and if they are there he's saying "they're evil".

This process can be repeated every day and right off hand I don't believe it would be particularly easy for the King's Men to trace the individual dreams or Elendil himself based on the lists, as the dream will originate from a different source every day and could be any of listed or unlisted names.

Thoughts on this plan? If no one can show that it would harm the village's chances I think we ought to agree to it as soon as possible, as it seems to be one of the few obvious constructive things we can do on Day 1.

ISILDUR- Now he has a straightforward and quite useful power- at a time of his choosing he can nullify the lynch! I think it's unlikely the power will be used early on unless he is defending himself or a dreamed-of Goodie if he's so lucky as to receive a dream. If he can stay alive to the point where reveals are made and suspicions are easier to come by etc. he could truly rescue the village from defeat. On the other hand if he's night-killed without using the power it'd be a total waste, so it's not as if he can say for certain that sitting on his power is best.

Or should he just bank on Day 1 being most likely an innocent and spare us the initial lynch right off the bat playing the percentages? Thoughts?

ANARION- The standard Ranger, here, except that there is a twice-per-game limit set on him. If not for that then the obvious percentage play on Night 2 would be self-protect, but if he survives the first couple days then still having a pair of self-protects in his pocket would be darn useful. This would also be another reason for an early Amandil reveal- with Anarion still alive the King's Men might feel a need to silence the trusted Amandil but they'd know the Ranger might be hovering over him. Thoughts on this?

[the phantom]

Well, I had hoped people would be around, but ah well... I'll check back in before I fall asleep at least.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Interesting point - a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

[Nerwen]

What? Tp with a masterplan! Who'd a thunk?

Originally Posted by Shasta

Interesting point - a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

Yes, that could work. And it might force the wolves to try and kill him, too, which would get rid of the main drawback to his revealing.

Originally Posted by Morsul

and 13 players? That means if we do really bad and don't catch any of them we have 7 day/nights. Not much time.

Actually that would be heaps of time– better than any village in WW history– but I think your calculations are a little out, there, Morsul.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What? Tp with a masterplan! Who'd a thunk?

Ever predictable Phantom....

Originally Posted by Shasta

a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, that could work. And it might force the wolves to try and kill him, too, which would get rid of the main drawback to his revealing.

Ooo, now we're talking.

So- Amandil reveals, Anarion protects him, Elendil sends him a dream tonight, tomorrow Amandil reveals the result, then the night after the King's Men are forced to decide whether to kill him and hand an Ordo a trusted gifted and miss a chance to kill the other Gifteds....

Any drawbacks to that?

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

There's no way the baddies could really spot anything under that system, correct? They certainly couldn't trace it to Elendil, but frankly I don't think they could even spot the dream recipient on a given day, as each person's guilt-list would randomly change every day and there would be bound to be countless correct answers on a given day.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually that would be heaps of time– better than any village in WW history– but I think your calculations are a little out, there, Morsul.

Yeah- if I'm not mistaken 3 consecutive incorrect lynches will pretty well kill us barring intervention from Gifteds. With the Ranger and a Healer out there though I'm thinking we'll have 4 chances to be wrong.

[the phantom]

Nighty-night, people. Hope to read your thoughts early tomorrow.

[Mänwe]

Good morning, ah looks as though a number of us haven't woken yet. Well if at the moment we're to be building a consensus on phantom's dream list then i'll not object, I don't see any drawbacks.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tp

So- Amandil reveals, Anarion protects him, Elendil sends him a dream tonight, tomorrow Amandil reveals the result, then the night after the King's Men are forced to decide whether to kill him and hand an Ordo a trusted gifted and miss a chance to kill the other Gifteds....

Any drawbacks to that?

Well, it does effectively give the King's Men a free shot at anyone else toNight– but that probably doesn't matter much at this stage of the game.

Originally Posted by tp

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

There's no way the baddies could really spot anything under that system, correct? They certainly couldn't trace it to Elendil, but frankly I don't think they could even spot the dream recipient on a given day, as each person's guilt-list would randomly change every day and there would be bound to be countless correct answers on a given day.

...unless hardly anybody posts that Day, in which case the dream-recipient would be left without cover– had you thought of that?

[Boromir88]

Amandil revealing, I think, would optimize his role. Since for all intents and purposes he's an ordo, but if he dies then the next in Amandil's line (at this point it would be Elendil) would be revealed to a randomly selected ordo.

The main difficulty is Elendil doesn't know if the person he selects to give the dream to each night is trustworthy. However, if Amandil were to reveal now, then it would set up a nice line of reveals that Elendil could trust.

Because going with the phantom's plan. If Amandil revealed today, and Anarion protects Amandil at night. Elendil could trust Amandil revealing the role of the person dreamed the next day. If it's a KM then perfect. But if it's not, say if Elendil picked someone who was revealed innocent to Amandil. Since the dream would go to Amandil, Elendil would know to trust it, and if the dream turns up innocent, then Elendil could send the next dream to that innocent, again knowing he could trust the result. And the process continues from there, setting up a way for Elendil to trust the information.

I like it.

As far as everyone making an "Elendil's list" (if the dreamed person is not on it = innocent. If dreamed person is on it = KM), I don't see much of a purpose. Perhaps it would be good today for everyone to do. Since only Elendil knows the person he picked and then to whom it would be revealed to. So then, Elendil will just have to decide whether to trust that person. However, if we go ahead with the Amandil reveal plan, then I don't see the benefit of continuing with everyone making an randomly generated "Elendil list." Since that, as I said above would set up a system that Elendil could trust completely.

It's not that I see any harm of it, but more of a hassle without any real benefit. I mean, I could see that I wouldn't be the only one who would turn Bombadil and in complete earnest just forget to make the list on some days. I suppose it would cover the tracks back to Elendil, but we'd already be setting up a track back to Elendil with Amandil revealing today and Elendil then sending Amandil the next person...right? The problem for the KM would be having a known and trusted innocent in Amandil, possibly Amandil giving another known and trusted innocent the next day (or a KM to lynch), as well as trying to find a way to break the chain, which as far as I can tell, could only be achieved by killing Elendil immediately.

I don't have anything against everyone doing it (it should be done today), but the question is would everyone remember to make the list for Elendil every day? And would someone necessarily be a KM if they forget? Seems like more of a hassle that could cause unintentional problems.

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

...unless hardly anybody posts that Day, in which case the dream-recipient would be left without cover– had you thought of that?

But people who don't post during the day run the risk of modfire no? I thought he'd be making the assumption that even if someone posts just the once then it should include this list.

~~

Boro, the point of tp's idea would be a way of communicating the role of the "dreamt" to Elendil without the "dreamer" and "dreamt" being given away too easily. This chain you speak of is fine in the event of Amandil revealing himself- and are you assuming that he then explicitly states the role of the "dreamt"? That makes that person an immediate target for the Kings Men and killing them (in the case that it was an innocent) off in the night would then break the chain resulting in Elendil having to make a stab in the dark as to who he chooses to send a dream to next.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

Ok now I understand, I was immensely confused for a few posts, thanks for outlining that.

I think it's worth a shot. and if everyone posted a list it would hide the recipient. Clever, Clever.

and Nerwen I went with the worst possible scenario, I certainly hope we have more time! I'm off to work for now but I shall return in a while.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

But people who don't post during the day run the risk of modfire no? I thought he'd be making the assumption that even if someone posts just the once then it should include this list.

Oh, I agree it all works in theory– but participation hasn't been great in recent games, and I can all too clearly imagine a scenario where half the village does those "no time to read the thread, must fly" posts.

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Boro, the point of tp's idea would be a way of communicating the role of the "dreamt" to Elendil without the "dreamer" and "dreamt" being given away too easily. This chain you speak of is fine in the event of Amandil revealing himself- and are you assuming that he then explicitly states the role of the "dreamt"? That makes that person an immediate target for the Kings Men and killing them (in the case that it was an innocent) off in the night would then break the chain resulting in Elendil having to make a stab in the dark as to who he chooses to send a dream to next.

Yes– but we do have a Ranger. That's what they're for, after all.

EDIT:x'd with Morsul.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, it does effectively give the King's Men a free shot at anyone else toNight– but that probably doesn't matter much at this stage of the game.

Aye it would give the KM one free crack to kill Elendil and spoil the whole point of Amandil revealing. But with the chance to set up a system where Elendil can trust the dreams being relayed back to him, I think it would still be worth it.

If Amandil doesn't reveal it frees up Anarion to protect whoever, but it leaves Elendil with no basis of knowing if the people receiving the dreams can be trusted. Worst case scenario in the event of Elendil gets killed anyway is we're basically left with nothing.

If Amandil does reveal, and Elendil does go ahead sending the next dream to Amandil, Anarion would be pretty much obligated to protect Amandil and ensure the dream is "safe." This leaves the KM one free crack, and in worst case scenario they kill Elendil but we go to the next day having a trusted Amandil with one reliable dream. And in the event they don't get Elendil, then it sets up the system to get a chain of relaying trustworthy information back to Elendil.

Edit: crossed with Morsul and Nerwen

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Boro, the point of tp's idea would be a way of communicating the role of the "dreamt" to Elendil without the "dreamer" and "dreamt" being given away too easily. This chain you speak of is fine in the event of Amandil revealing himself- and are you assuming that he then explicitly states the role of the "dreamt"? That makes that person an immediate target for the Kings Men and killing them (in the case that it was an innocent) off in the night would then break the chain resulting in Elendil having to make a stab in the dark as to who he chooses to send a dream to next.

Not necessarily. Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, I agree it all works in theory– but participation hasn't been great in recent games, and I can all too clearly imagine a scenario where half the village does those "no time to read the thread, must fly" posts.


Yes– but we do have a Ranger. That's what they're for, after all.

EDIT:x'd with Morsul.

Ah well fair point, but if the purpose is merely to pick three random names- were it to be agree- i'm sure they could manage it in a "fly by post"..which leads me onto your next point about the Ranger as per Boro

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not necessarily. Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

Hehe he might have just slipped my mind but yes true i'm sure it could be disguised its just with the Ranger not being able to save the same person twice in a row anyone outed would be dead the night after if the Kings Men so choose or could be eliminated in their hunt for the other special roles if they're prioritising.

I wondering can identities be passed on secretively and successfully or do they often become so cryptic the intended recipient is none the wiser? My point is though the list of three before night falls is still a good idea to continue.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Yes indeed! I was just about to post-> "Does posting first mean I found the body first? Uh-oh" or something similar.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ah, well, I'll have to be third, then.

That's the spirit! Well, that's the game, then.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Frankly it makes me wonder if Amandil shouldn't just be super bold right from the start. I mean, that way we won't lynch him and if the baddies kill him they know that the result will be Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion surviving the night plus a random Ordo will know to trust one of them due to the death-power.

Leave it to tp to induce a headache this early!

Hm. I need to look it over carefully. The main issue I see is trusting the "revealed" Amandil. I think it's certainly something to consider, but ultimately it's Amandil's decision.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

If Elendil can glean that information from Amandil's post, then presumably so could anyone else. Just something to keep in mind.

x/d with Mänwe

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Elendil can glean that information from Amandil's post, then presumably so could anyone else. Just something to keep in mind.
x/d with Mänwe

Yes, also what I was getting at.

[the phantom]

So, we're done on the Amandil issue then? Everyone agrees he can step forward? (We'll trust his reveal, Inzil, because what KM would fake reveal on Day 1 with a potential counter-reveal out there?)

Regarding the Elendil list, the main concern is that people's participation sucks? Ugh, that's really really annoying. It seems this game has changed since I last played...

Ah, well. If the rest of you don't mind, I'm going to do it anyway. At least that way if I happen to be selected as a recipient I'll have an established method for passing the info back. I suppose everyone else can do their own thing, so long as they believe it will work.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hey guys, how about those Elves, eh? I sure do appreciate those Elves. No question about that.

I am trying to work out how Phantom's plan could be used against the village, should he be evil. I don't think there is a way, and I'm inclined to agree with everything he said earlier.

But I need to think on it a bit more, because you can never fully trust a talented werewolver.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Should that be werewolfer? I think so.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Hm. I need to look it over carefully. The main issue I see is trusting the "revealed" Amandil. I think it's certainly something to consider, but ultimately it's Amandil's decision.

What tp said here, and why would a KM fake reveal when the only tradeoff is to possibly lynch Amandil? The fake could flop and lynch the KM, then everyone would know the real Amandil. In the event of the KM fake revealing and getting the real Amandil lynched, everyone knows one KM. Which would essentially leave 2 remaining KM to deal with Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion who are more powerful gifteds than Amandil. (No offense to Amandil). And the worst case scenario if the KM's fake reveal is successfu to lynching Amandil, then a random ordo will know learn who Elendil is.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Regarding the Elendil list, the main concern is that people's participation sucks? Ugh, that's really really annoying. It seems this game has changed since I last played...

Ah, well. If the rest of you don't mind, I'm going to do it anyway. At least that way if I happen to be selected as a recipient I'll have an established method for passing the info back. I suppose everyone else can do their own thing, so long as they believe it will work.

The problem is it requires everyone not only doing it, but remembering to do it every day. It adds another task to complete, and I could honestly see just forgetting to do it. And I don't want that to further lead anyone thinking "Oh Boro didn't create his list for Elendil, must be an obstinate KM." I'm fine with doing it myself, but I don't think it's necessary to have a hardline mandatory agreement to do it.

I will say, if we go forward with Amandil revealing (which ultimately will be up to Amandil now). Then the next day Amandil should do the "Guilty Elendil list," which should successfully transfer the dreamed of person to Elendil, and at the same time hide the dream from the KM. There isn't any further risk to Amandil, since he would be already revealed anyways. This making any sense?

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not necessarily. Still only Elendil and Amandil would know the person who was dreamed. Say Elendil chooses Brinn and sends it to the revealed Amandil. Only Elendil and Amandil would know it was Brinn. Amandil wouldn't have directly announce the next day "Brinn is innocent" to let Elendil know this. Amandil can disguise the result easily enough in his posts to let Elendil know the result and thus proceed from there. And as Nerwen pointed out, there's also the Ranger.

Which means that, especially in the case of Amandil if not afterwards, Amandil could pretty explicitly just state "I dreamed of an innocent", since only Amandil and Elendil would know who's being thus labeled - no need for too much secret coding. Obviously the name of a KM can be shared. After Amandil the rest would need to be more concealed, and indeed the lists that tp suggested could come in handy. If we do want to keep them concealed - stating explicitly known innocents would indeed, as mentioned, put the KM in the situation where they either have to accept the amount of unknown roles getting smaller and smaller, as well as facing the threat of being found themselves, while hunting for Elendil; or keep killing the known innocents and know that nothing threats Elendil apart from lynch. If the innocents will stay known only to Elendil (and the current dreamer), there is the danger that when Elendil dies we are left with very little trustworthy information.

Regarding participation, it seems like there is more potential in this game than there has been in the past few. And anyone has time to put up a randomised list. If it would become a habit for everyone, I think it would also be harder to forget, as you'd keep seeing the lists in every post in the first part of the day.

I'd say yes to Amandil revealing. I'd also agree to lists today at the very least.

Just to confirm, there's no CC, right?

And just in case - if a KM decides to do a fake-reveal, Amandil, at least counter that! Otherwise we're stuck with a lot of problematicly full trust to a KM, and potentially to a chain of people after that.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Correct P, there is no CC.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

What tp said here, and why would a KM fake reveal when the only tradeoff is to possibly lynch Amandil? The fake could flop and lynch the KM, then everyone would know the real Amandil. In the event of the KM fake revealing and getting the real Amandil lynched, everyone knows one KM. Which would essentially leave 2 remaining KM to deal with Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion who are more powerful gifteds than Amandil. (No offense to Amandil). And the worst case scenario if the KM's fake reveal is successfu to lynching Amandil, then a random ordo will know learn who Elendil is.

Well, I didn't say the possibility of a fake reveal should prevent the plan, it was just a thought I had.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The problem is it requires everyone not only doing it, but remembering to do it every day. It adds another task to complete, and I could honestly see just forgetting to do it. And I don't want that to further lead anyone thinking "Oh Boro didn't create his list for Elendil, must be an obstinate KM." I'm fine with doing it myself, but I don't think it's necessary to have a hardline mandatory agreement to do it.

But if everyone doesn't do the lists consistently, couldn't that be a means to for all to see the dream-recipient? I mean, if someone hasn't been doing it, then suddenly does it once, then stops again, wouldn't that expose them? I would think it would have to be done by all. Then again, maybe I'm missing something.

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But if everyone doesn't do the lists consistently, couldn't that be a means to for all to see the dream-recipient? I mean, if someone hasn't been doing it, then suddenly does it once, then stops again, wouldn't that expose them? I would think it would have to be done by all. Then again, maybe I'm missing something.

I don't know how much consistency would be necessary, though. I mean, yes, if someone never writes a list and then does it once, it would be obvious, but if someone forgets for one day I cannot see how that would point to anything really. Except of course if that one is the dreamer, in which case Elendil can make xis own assumptions. So it should be done usually, but it isn't the end of the world if forgotten once.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

I don't know how much consistency would be necessary, though. I mean, yes, if someone never writes a list and then does it once, it would be obvious, but if someone forgets for one day I cannot see how that would point to anything really. Except of course if that one is the dreamer, in which case Elendil can make xis own assumptions. So it should be done usually, but it isn't the end of the world if forgotten once.

All right. I'm just looking for holes in this deal, before everyone just jumps in.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Inzil

But if everyone doesn't do the lists consistently, couldn't that be a means to for all to see the dream-recipient? I mean, if someone hasn't been doing it, then suddenly does it once, then stops again, wouldn't that expose them? I would think it would have to be done by all. Then again, maybe I'm missing something.

I get what you're saying here, and you're making me think Inzil....

Okay, so, here's what I'm thinking. Inzil has a point about consistency. If someone isn't doing much then suddenly says enough in which one could find an Elendil dream hint, that sticks out. Everyone ought to do something consistently- at the very least post enough in which to bury a hint.

And so my 3-name thing seems like the bare minimum, right? I mean honestly- if asking everyone to randomly list 3 people in their first post each day is too much, we may as well modfire everyone. Show up in the morning and say "Inzil-Shasta-Nerwen" and bang, you're done. Totally not difficult.

Now, for those that post more than others (e.g. me) I suppose it isn't technically necessary as I'm saying enough every day that slipping in a dream hint wouldn't be a problem, but I think the low-volume posters ought to be forced to agree to this plan. I mean- if they can't be bothered to type three people's names every 48 hours then we may as well lynch them.

Also- did anyone give any thoughts on my idea for Isildur to just save whoever gets lynched today given the simple odds at this point in the village?

Finally- are we ready for Amandil to step up?

[Pomegranate]

I agree that it is a good idea to go through every possible situation, Inzil, that's why I keep pointing out why it does work. So that every argument, pro and against, gets said. There is a reason why I haven't posted a list yet, that's because I don't want everyone to just jump blindly in, but I cannot come up with any proper problems; that doesn't mean that you or someone else couldn't.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Which means that, especially in the case of Amandil if not afterwards, Amandil could pretty explicitly just state "I dreamed of an innocent", since only Amandil and Elendil would know who's being thus labeled - no need for too much secret coding. Obviously the name of a KM can be shared. After Amandil the rest would need to be more concealed, and indeed the lists that tp suggested could come in handy.

Aye Amandil saying "I saw an innocent" or "I saw a KM" would also be the same as everyone creating an Elendil list. Either way, as long as it's done uniformly and consistently, that way there is no confusion with relaying dreams to Elendil then let's go with it.

If we do want to keep them concealed - stating explicitly known innocents would indeed, as mentioned, put the KM in the situation where they either have to accept the amount of unknown roles getting smaller and smaller, as well as facing the threat of being found themselves, while hunting for Elendil; or keep killing the known innocents and know that nothing threats Elendil apart from lynch. If the innocents will stay known only to Elendil (and the current dreamer), there is the danger that when Elendil dies we are left with very little trustworthy information.

Here's how I'm thinking about it...

Currently Elendil has one dream and sent it to one person. I would hope Elendil could rely on the information, but there's no way for Elendil to know this for sure. From what I understand, Elendil can double-check and send the same name to a different person, but that's wasting dream choices. And further, there would be no way for Elendil to know which person was telling the truth if he sent 2 people the same name and they relayed conflicting info.

Amandil revealing would establish that reliable chain of dreams. So, to expand on my earlier example.

1. Amandil reveals today, Elendil dreams Brinn and sends it to Amandil.

2. Amandil either with creating the list that's been talked about or just saying "I saw an innocent" will let Elendil know Brinn's innocent and it would not give the trail away to the KM.

3. Elendil proceeds to give the next name to Brinn and it continues on from there...

Now to your point Pom, what if in #3, Elendil is killed in the night. We could still follow the chain from Amandil who could say "The innocent I saw was Brinn" and then we would know to trust Brinn saying "I saw an innocent/KM." It wouldn't do much good for the KM to kill Amandil because the leaves Elendil still who could keep dreaming and continue the line of trustworthy dreams from Brinn.

This would seem to put under Elendil extreme risk of being discovered and having no Ranger protection, with Anarion being occupied protecting the dream-recipients (the innocent ones). Ideally it would be great to give Elendil as many chances as possible, but at the same time, there needs to be an established way to make sure Elendil is actually being relayed trustworthy dreams, otherwise Elendil (and thus the rest of us) is left in the dark, unsure if the relayed information is true or not.

[the phantom]

I'm still turning the implications of the roles over in my mind here- hope no one minds all this thinking out loud and asking for input. (To our moddess- seriously I find these rules/roles to be quite fun for providing Day 1 musings. Well done. )

Lately I've been contemplating how bold dream recipients could potentially be even in the absence of Amandil. I mean- if last night's recipient admits to it and states the target, what are the baddies going to do about it? Kill him?

I don't think so, as that would then prove the dream-target's innocence/guilt and simultaneously leave Elendil alive for another dream. I'm thinking the KM's would most definitely not attack the dream recipient and target because those are two people guaranteed not to be Elendil.

Under this set up it would be ideal for Elendil to dream of the other gifteds or use them as recipients, as he simply has to be top priority for the Baddies thus they would as a rule shy away from killing his dreams. BUT how would the KMs even find Elendil given that he has zero secret verifiable information to pass on, as he himself is not the recipient? Seriously- I'm almost sorry for them.

And on my earlier point about Isildur just using his power on Day 1, if he does so might he just go ahead and Day 1 reveal? It would give another trustable figure, and also rule out the necessity of bothering to dream of him. The only downside I think would be the KMs could rule him out as Elendil. Any thoughts on this?

[the phantom]

Have not heard from these at all:
Lottie
Sally
Steve
Brin

[Pomegranate]

Phantom: That is pretty much what I was heading to with "stating explicitly known innocents would indeed, as mentioned, put the KM in the situation where they either have to accept the amount of unknown roles getting smaller and smaller, as well as facing the threat of being found themselves, while hunting for Elendil; or keep killing the known innocents and know that nothing threats Elendil apart from lynch." Either we'd get a new innocent every day (one that pretty much isn't under the threat of dying, as long as Elendil stays alive, given that KM would hunt for Elendil), or a new KM would be revealed. This would need the chain for it to work, though - otherwise there's no trusting the dreams. Or would it be worth it for the KM to fake dream reveals? If they are sent a dream, then yes - they can lie and no-one can prove it wrong.

I'll need to think about Isildur before having an opinion on it.

[the phantom]

Yeah, Pom- the chain thing would force the choice. I suppose Elendil will logically send Amandil a dream tonight of his previous recipient to start things off, then it'll be up to him whether or not to continue from the opposite end of the chain the next night- assuming that the opposite end has not already been found guilty, that is. Given that circumstance I suppose Amandil's dream target (last night's recipient) would request night protection and be granted a second dream to restart the innocent chain.

In rereading the rules on the Admin page I noticed this under Elendil-

May use gift on Night1.

Which I suppose means that it would be within his power not to use his gift Night 1. Do you think there's much of a chance that Elendil passed up his dream opportunity out of fear that he would reveal a Gifted to a Baddie on Night 1? I would understand some amount of hesitation given that Elendil had no Day activity to base suspicions off of, and given the number of Gifteds and their various useful powers he may have decided it would be wiser not to shoot the village in the foot with a potentially disastrous Night 1 selection.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

About Isildur's power to save a lynchee, what would happen if no-one in the village voted on Day One? Is this against the rules?

From the village perspective, it would be great to save Isildur's power, not lynch a gifted, and then have (hopefully) info to go on on Day Two.

Or is that completely ridiculous? Sorry, I'm cooking supper while thinking about this so it's probably not coherent. Also, my chili will probably turn out sub-standard due to lack of focus.