Elven/Mortal marriages...

[Arwen1858]

I have a question. I know that Arwen was half-elven, therefore had a choice to be an elf or to be mortal, she chose to be mortal, and marry Aragorn. What if a pure-blooded elf fell in love with a mortal? What would happen then? Could they marry? How would that work? I haven't read all of Tolkien's books yet. I'm re-reading LotR, then I'm going to read the Silmarillion for the first time. So, I don't know a whole lot about the elves, except for what's covered in LotR, including the appendices. any help would be greatly appreciated!
Arwen

[Airerûthiel]

I don't know a whole lot about the Elves either, but here's my guess: As far as I recall, Lúthien was of pure Elven blood when she married Beren, so I think it would probably work in the same way as Arwen and Aragorn's marriage. I will however admit that my memory of LotR is sketchy, so please feel free to tell me if I'm wrong.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Arwen wasn't Half-elven, and she didn't choose to be an Elf at all. Her father Elrond was, but he had made the choice -- granted by the Valar, through Illuvatar's discretion (hmm... well read the Sil first. I won't go into that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) -- long ago to be an Elda; Arwen's father and mother were therefore both Elvish. Her fate would have been that of the Firstborn as well, had she not married Aragorn and adopted the destiny of Men.

Arwen certainly had human ancestry, but she was an Elf herself.

And no, it wouldn't have mattered if she hadn't had that ancestry. It is irrelevent. Idril was of fully Eldarin ancestry, whom Tuor wedded in the First Age (Tuor taking up immortality in Arda, and the Elvish and as Areruthiel mentions, Luthien`s (wife of Beren, Man, also in the First Age) parents had no trace of Mannish blood in them either.

The thing is, you see, the three Unions of the Two Kindreds had nothing to do with the ancestry of those involved, but with which kindred they themselves were. The different fates of Elves and Men are what counts principally in all. (You`ll probably get a good idea of this from the Silmarillion, though. Good luck!)

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Sorry, Gwaihir, but Arwen wasn't an elf, she was a half-elf and, being a descendant of Elrond, she had to choose her fate.
Elrond wasn't an elf, either. He chose the fate of the Elves, but he remained as a half-elf.

Arwen's situation is completely different to Lúthien's or Tuor's. Arwen had to choose, and she knew it.
Lúthien and Tuor couldn't choose. It was after their marriages that Eru changed their fates, but this is something that is not to be repeated very often, as Finrod says in the Atrabeth.
In my opinion, any other mortal/elf marriage woudn't have any effect on the fates of the husband and wife, they would remain as they were before marrying, and their children would be fully mortal.

[Finwe]

After the Beren/Luthien controversy, Eru decreed that anyone with even a drop of mortal blood would be mortal, no matter how much Elven blood they had, or who their ancestors were. That was later emended in the Earendil/Elwing case, since they had both risked their lives to save Beleriand from Morgoth. Doing great deeds does bring you rewards.

[Arothir]

In Tolkien's original conception, Idril became mortal. This can be found in BoLT 2, in the appendix. There it says her name Idril, was altered to Idhril, meaning mortal maiden, because she wedded Tuor.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, if Idril became mortal, that's a bit of a shame for poor old Tuor who's fate, according to the Silmarillion, was "sundered from the fate of men".

I can imagine some bureaucrat in Valinor taking the rap for that one:

Bureaucrat 1: "Have you heard, Idril's been granted mortality?"

Bureaucrat 2: "Oh c**p, I just stamped the papers for Tuor's immortality ...".

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Amusing, Saucepan, but the 'original conception' was what she was talking about [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]. Pay attention!

Well, its the first I've heard of all that. But then, my inferior knowledge of the later HoMEs has tended to trip me up on occasion before (very embarassing, but there you go *gloom*. I plan to have read them within a year, although that's quite late still.). As far as I was concerned this was a simple Silmarillion/LotR-based discussion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], but clearly there's other material on this matter that I haven't read.

[Arothir]

Gwaihir, BoLT 2 isn't really a late HoME book. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] By the way, it's a he, not a she. Otherwise I could not be the second King of Nargothrond!

[The Saucepan Man]

Amusing, Saucepan, but the 'original conception' was what she was talking about . Pay attention!

Why let accuracy get in the way when there's a cheap laugh in the offing, Gwaihir? Just ask Gimli! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Just a little nitpicking ... Luthien is not really of pure elfen blood, being the daughter of Melian, a Maia... unless the manifestation a maia uses (i.e. an elf form in the First Age, for Elu's sake) gives that form to their children.

[ArathorofBarahir]

If an Elf falls in love with a mortal man, I think that the Elf would have to choose between mortality and immortality.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

No, an elf cannot choose his/her fate. Lüthien has been the only elf that has been allowed to change her fate.

[Secret Fire]

To Earendil's two son's Elros and Elrond was given the choice of their fates, Elros chose the fate of man (yet was grated very log life), and Elrond chose immortality, this choice, since he had chosed immortality, was passed to all of his ancestors since he had chosen deathlessness (how much trouble would it have saved if Elros' children were given the same choice). Elrond was partially maia, partially elf, and half man, and his children were given the choice of which kindred to join fates with. THere have been some very interested threads about this topic, but the search feature isn't working right now, otherwise I'd link you to them.

[Lord of Angmar]

how much trouble would it have saved if Elros' children were given the same choice

Good point, although that would be sad since the greatest house of men, the Edain would probably have become no more.

[Legolas]

Elrond's children were not given the choice because of what Elrond chose. They were given the choice because their mother was wholly elven. Elros was mortal and his wife was mortal, thus no immortal strains were present in their children. Pretty obvious, and has been stated repeatedly throughout threads on the same subject.

[The Saucepan Man]

... this choice, since he had chosed immortality, was passed to all of his ancestors since he had chosen deathlessness

Hmm, that would certainly please the likes of Huor, Rian, Galdor, Hareth and Hador, not to mention countless others ... I think that you mean descendants, rather than ancestors. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

But the choice was not passed to all of Elrond's descendants. The choice was passed only to those who had no mortal blood in their veins. So, Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir were all able to make the choice, since both of their parents were immortal. Had Elladan and Elrohir married Elves, their children would, presumably, have had the choice. But Arwen's children were not given the choice because mortal blood flowed in their veins, inherited in fact from both their father and their mother, as Arwen chose mortality.

One question does occur to me, though. Say that all of Elladan's descendants had married Elves, would the mortal element of their make-up at some stage become so diluted that they would become "automatically" immortal without having to make any choice?

[Secret Fire]

You caught me switching my words again. Basically, I'm thinking that the choice to be mortal is the one that is irreversible by the half-elven's descendants, but the choice to be elf-kind was always reversible (until the departure of the elves from Middle Earth, of course).

[Findegil]

The decendants of Elladan and Elrohir had now choice. With the generation of Elronds Children the choices came to an end. They had the choice to go with their father into the west or to become mortal. Tolkien mentions in one of his letters that Elladan und Elrohir had delaied their choice. That means they were allowed to stay in Middle-Earth and follow thier father later or stay for ever and become mortal. In additon it is told of Arwen that she had the youth of the Eldar as long as Elrond was in Middle-Earth (or she choose to become mortal).
When we take these together it could mean that Elladan and Elrohir started to age swiftly as Man (supposedly as such Man of kingly numenoren blood in the early second age) do, when Elrond left. They were still allowed to sail west and the aging would stop in Eressea, but if they stayed in Middle-Earth they would inevetablely die.

Arwen on the other hand had made her choice and not delaied it. She couldn't sail west.

We do not hear of any wife of the twin-brothers. And I suppose that to marry they had to make their choice explecit as Arwen did. May be the concept was even more subtle: Tolkien had a strong belive in traditional view of marriage. If you become devoted to some one enought to marry her/him than you would like to shaer her/his fate.

Respectfully
Findegil

[The Saucepan Man]

With the generation of Elronds Children the choices came to an end. They had the choice to go with their father into the west or to become mortal.

So, Findegil, are you saying that, if Elrond's sons chose immortality and sailed west, their children would (assuming they married immortals themselves) automatically be immortal?

Arwen on the other hand had made her choice and not delaied it. She couldn't sail west.

Presumably, with the permission of the Valar, she could (as other mortals did) have sailed to the Undying Lands had she chosen to, following Aragorn's death. But she would have remained mortal and died there. Then again, I doubt that saying goodbye to her family a second time held much attraction for her.

[Finwe]

Mortals were not allowed to go to the Undying Lands, except in certain circumstances (Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli, etc.). If Arwen had tried to go West, it would have been a betrayal of her choice. She couldn't "have her cake and eat it too." When she chose to marry Aragorn, she chose to give up her right to sail to Valinor, and that right she gave to Frodo. It would have been a quite callous betrayal of the worst sort had she gone back on her choice after Aragorn's death, and sailed to Valinor.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Findegil, I had always thought that even though Elrond's sons had chosen immortality, their children would have to choose their fate. But after reading your answer I have changed my mind.
Does it seem reasonable that somebody living in the Undying Lands could choose to become mortal? I don't think so. That is the main reason for me to agree with you. In this case, Elladan and Elrohir's children would be immortal, whitout choice. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Silmiel of Imladris]

Elves, Half Elves, whatever! They are all immortal if they choose so hence they must all be Elves. Anyway, here is my question. If an Elf marries a mortal will they age or will they just stay the same until their significant other dies causing them to die of grief and not old age?

[Findegil]

We clearly have to seperat Elves and Half-Elves (or to put corrcet Elves with a fate especialy premited to them).

Elves: They do age equily whom so ever they marry. But verrrrrrrrrrry slow. This would not change at all. The death of the mortal partner would be a heavy blow but it would not inevitably lead to the abontment of incarneted life. Even if the Elve would die because of the grief, that would only mean a time of rest for the Elf in Mandos and if he which it, a return to incarnated life. The reuniting of the partner would be delaid until the end of the world and even then it would be uncertain since the fate of the Elves in thet hour is not known.
An example for that is Mithrelas who marriage Imrazor, a Gondorrim. She did not die but she vanished and it is hinted at that she sailed in to the west.

Half-Elves: After the journey of Earendil the Valar discussed the fate of the Half-Elves. In the result Manwe declared that any being having a share in mortal blood would be mortal, if no other fate was especialy granted to it. The only cases of such a especialy granted fate are Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan. All of these could choose there own fate. Lets look to their marriages each in turn:
Earendil and Elwing were already marriage when the declaration was made. It is told that they both toke the fate of the Elves Elwing for the reverance of Lúthien and Earendil because of his love for Elwing. Here we have alraedy a clear case of partners who took the same fate, but they did it together.
Elrond had already made his choice when he married Celebrian. But his wife was fitingly to his choice an Elven-woman.
Elros had also made his choice before he married and also in his case he married a woman of Mankid, fittingly to his choice.
Arwen is the only case, that we no of, were a choice was made because of a marriage. Arwen choose the mortal fate because of her love to Aragorn. Her aging was eventually much slower than his (or it started later). So that she was not tired of her life when Aragorn was and made an end to his. We do not know how long she meight have lifed after Aragorns death. But she soon choose also to die and follow him to the fate of man.
For Elrohir and Elladan we do not know if they married at all. But I at least had the impression that when it is told that later no body lived in Imlardis, this means they had sailed west. Based on the evidences we have, I would say that means if they had marriaged at all or thier wife(s) would be Elves.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Finwe]

Does it seem reasonable that somebody living in the Undying Lands could choose to become mortal? I don't think so. That is the main reason for me to agree with you. In this case, Elladan and Elrohir's children would be immortal, whitout choice.

We also have to remember that the Undying Lands do not make people immortal, rather, it is the immortal people who live there that give the land its grace. Just because someone lives in Aman, does not necessarily mean that they are immortal, look at Frodo/Bilbo/Gimli, etc.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Yes, Finwë you are right. But my question was different [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].
I don't think it makes sense that a child born in the Undying Lands could choose to become mortal. And that would be the case of the children of Elladan and Elrohir, if they were considered Half-elven. That is the reason why I agree with Findegil in that Elrond's children were the last ones that could choose their fates.

[Legolas]

That is the reason why I agree with Findegil in that Elrond's children were the last ones that could choose their fates.

That we know of...we don't know past Elladan/Elrohir, and it never states that the choice was extended or not.

Does it seem reasonable that somebody living in the Undying Lands could choose to become mortal? I don't think so.

It is not impossible that Elladan and Elrohir had children prior to leaving Middle-earth.

The decendants of Elladan and Elrohir had now choice. With the generation of Elronds Children the choices came to an end. They had the choice to go with their father into the west or to become mortal. Tolkien mentions in one of his letters that Elladan und Elrohir had delaied their choice.

Nowhere is it stated that Elladan and Elrohir remained single forever or wed, so we have no reason to say either was the case. Also, nowhere is it stated that Elladan/Elrohir were the end of the line as far as the choice goes.

Any children born in Valinor would most likely be immortal without choice, but we're given no reason to believe that Elladan/Elrohir's children, if born to an elven mother in Middle-earth prior to their sailing to Valinor (however likely or unlikely that might be), would not be given the same choice as their fathers. The situation is not encountered, but given the situation of Arwen/Elladan/Elrohir being born to Celebrian, this would be the logical continuance.

Tolkien never gave us any hint that the choice would've ended with Elladan/Elrohir. That's where the legendarium stops. You can't concretely state what you're trying to.

[ October 12, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Finwe]

I agree with you Legolas, but speculation is all that we have right now, since Tolkien didn't write anything definitive on the fates of Elladan and Elrohir.

[Findegil]

Yes, in the case of children of Elladan and Elrohir we can only speculat. But we might es well consider likliness or unlikliness.

We have the following statment about the doom of Earendil and Elwing and their sons (in the published The Silmarillion this was editorialy shortened so that I will qoute from the original Oenta Silmarillion, sub-chapter: The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion in The History of Middle-Earth volume 6: The Lost Road and other writtings, {I added some emphasis.}):

$8. Now the Gods took counsel concerning Earendel, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps; and when they were gathered together Mandos spoke, saying: 'Now he shall surely die, for he has trodden the forbidden shores.' But Ulmo said. "For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Earendel Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or Idril's son Turgon's daughter of the Elven-house of Finwe? Or being half of either kindred, which half shall die?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally was it forbidden to the Noldor that went wilfully into exile to return hither.'
$9. Then Manwe gave judgement and he said: 'To Earendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Earendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'
$10. Then Earendel and Elwing were summoned, and this decree was declared to them. But Earendel said to Elwing: 'Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.' And she chose to be judged among the Firstborn, because of Luthien, and for the sake of Elwing Earendel chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father.

If we read with that in mind the doom that was spoken at the birth of Arwen. Then my spekulation is that no further special dooms were ever granted. If one of children of Elrond marriaged a mortal they would choose mortility and their offsprings would be mortal (e.g. Arwen). If they would marriage an elf they would follow thier father into the west. Their offspring in such case are very special. Since they had a small part of mortal blod. But there is no example given.

My speculation is, that the brother did not marry in Middle-Earth because they feared that their offsprings would be mortal what so ever wife they toke. But if they marriaged later in Aman there could be little doubt that their offspring would be granted elven lives.

Respectfully
Findegil