The size of Morgoth and Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Vultur · 08-04-2010, 01:14 AM

How big do you imagine Morgoth's form (when he became locked into one shape, 'a dark lord, tall and terrible') was? I always imagined him absolutely towering over Fingolfin, three or four times his height; the description of his fight with Fingolfin suggests immense size, 'the rumour of his feet as like thunder', 'he stood before the King like a tower', his shield 'cast a shadow over him [Fingolfin] like a stormcloud', and when Morgoth sets a foot on Fingolfin 'the weight of it was like a fallen hill'. Also, when Luthien enchanted him to sleep, 'he fell, as a hill sliding in avalanche'. But I saw a webpage that pointed out that the line 'Morgoth set his left foot upon his [Fingolfin's] neck' suggests that Morgoth wasn't that huge, else he'd just be standing on Fingolfin as a whole. So how big do you imagine him as?

For comparison, in one of his letters Tolkien says that Sauron's incarnate form was 'of more than human stature, but not gigantic'. Fairly vague, but I tend to imagine him taller than Elendil and Gil-galad, but not overpoweringly so -- a head or so taller. (Elendil himself was ludicrously tall, though.) I imagine Sauron's form was much smaller than that of Morgoth...

Galin · 08-04-2010, 04:48 AM

Quote:

(Elendil himself was ludicrously tall, though.)

If you mean almost eight feet (gleaned from Unfinished Tales) there is other late text which de-biggens Elendil... well, I consider it variant from Unfinished Tales anyway.

'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).' JRRT

Published by Hammond and Scull in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings. I don't know if it's possible to find out which text is later than the other however.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 08-04-2010, 05:20 AM

That's an interesting question. There's been something similar covered by people recently in this topic. To cite my personal opinion from there, I think the size of Morgoth and Sauron and even Maiar in general (think Balrog!) was more about the impression than about physical height. I don't know how to express it so that it is perfectly clear, but hope you understand what I mean when I say it like this: it is not that you would put Sauron or Morgoth on a scale and say "21 feet, 800 pounds, next please". I am sure, for example, that the Orcs did not have to build special new entrance and raise ceilings in Cirith Ungol for the possibility that Sauron might come to an inspection and would not fit into the rooms. If he really came (of course, we are talking all hypothetically here), he would fit - somehow. But when you saw him, you could not be sure, and at that moment his presence would overwhelm you to the point that you won't be able to think of how tall he exactly is. And once you were away from his presence and tried to imagine, you'd think "well, I am sure he was taller than me - a lot - he was taller than the door - terrible..." but again, you won't have anything that will help you exactly determine the height. It is as if you had some spooky experience, like that you are walking in a forest at night and suddenly something big and black with shining eyes appears between the trees... and it was only your neighbor's dog who might not be as big, but the impression in your mind is a lot different, and if you tried to determine how exactly big it was, you cannot do it from your memory. That's the impression I get from the description of Balrog, and I think it will be very fitting to see Sauron or Morgoth the same.

Vultur · 08-04-2010, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

If you mean almost eight feet (gleaned from Unfinished Tales) there is other late text which de-biggens Elendil... well, I consider it variant from Unfinished Tales anyway.

'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).' JRRT

Published by Hammond and Scull in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings. I don't know if it's possible to find out which text is later than the other however.

Hmm. I did mean the eight foot height.

I meant ludicrous by modern standards though; I don't have any real problem with an almost 8' Elendil, as the Numenoreans were notably taller than modern humans. (Apparently 6'4" was 'man-height'; the average US male height is 5'9", so Numenoreans in general were huge.)

Morthoron · 08-04-2010, 07:49 PM

I just keep seeing Rick Moranis reprising his role as Dark Helmet from Spaceballs.

But this time, he is Sauron, looking every bit a tall and menacing Dark Lord --
that is, until he reaches for a Palantir and it turns out he's 5 feet tall.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 08-04-2010, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I just keep seeing Rick Moranis reprising his role as Dark Helmet from Spaceballs.

But this time, he is Sauron, looking every bit a tall and menacing Dark Lord --
that is, until he reaches for a Palantir and it turns out he's 5 feet tall.

Good lord, this makes me think of part of a Star Wars parody I wrote for our SF club about 30 years ago. "Darth Mordor. One meter tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes dragging on the floor...." How time flies...

Pitchwife · 08-05-2010, 01:32 PM

I see it now...

The Mouth: "You're needed at the palantír, Your Dark Lordship."
Sauron (hastily covering what he was doing with cloak of darkness): "KNOCK ON MY DOOR! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO KNOCK ON MY DOOR!"
The Mouth: "Yes, Your Dark Lordship."
Sauron: "Did you see anything?"
The Mouth: "No, Your Dark Lordship, I didn't see you playing with your Galadriel puppet again."

Blind Guardian · 08-05-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I see it now...

The Mouth: "You're needed at the palantír, Your Dark Lordship."
Sauron (hastily covering what he was doing with cloak of darkness): "KNOCK ON MY DOOR! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO KNOCK ON MY DOOR!"
The Mouth: "Yes, Your Dark Lordship."
Sauron: "Did you see anything?"
The Mouth: "No, Your Dark Lordship, I didn't see you playing with your Galadriel puppet again."

Oh, my....

I don't see him liking her.

Tuor in Gondolin · 08-05-2010, 05:39 PM

And I see Madeline Kahn as Galadriel and Mel Brooks as Celeborn:
(To Frodo as he leaves Lorien)
"May the Schwartz be with you."

08-04-2010, 01:14 AM	#1
Vultur Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 14	The size of Morgoth and Sauron How big do you imagine Morgoth's form (when he became locked into one shape, 'a dark lord, tall and terrible') was? I always imagined him absolutely towering over Fingolfin, three or four times his height; the description of his fight with Fingolfin suggests immense size, 'the rumour of his feet as like thunder', 'he stood before the King like a tower', his shield 'cast a shadow over him [Fingolfin] like a stormcloud', and when Morgoth sets a foot on Fingolfin 'the weight of it was like a fallen hill'. Also, when Luthien enchanted him to sleep, 'he fell, as a hill sliding in avalanche'. But I saw a webpage that pointed out that the line 'Morgoth set his left foot upon his [Fingolfin's] neck' suggests that Morgoth wasn't that huge, else he'd just be standing on Fingolfin as a whole. So how big do you imagine him as? For comparison, in one of his letters Tolkien says that Sauron's incarnate form was 'of more than human stature, but not gigantic'. Fairly vague, but I tend to imagine him taller than Elendil and Gil-galad, but not overpoweringly so -- a head or so taller. (Elendil himself was ludicrously tall, though.) I imagine Sauron's form was much smaller than that of Morgoth...

08-04-2010, 05:20 AM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	That's an interesting question. There's been something similar covered by people recently in this topic. To cite my personal opinion from there, I think the size of Morgoth and Sauron and even Maiar in general (think Balrog!) was more about the impression than about physical height. I don't know how to express it so that it is perfectly clear, but hope you understand what I mean when I say it like this: it is not that you would put Sauron or Morgoth on a scale and say "21 feet, 800 pounds, next please". I am sure, for example, that the Orcs did not have to build special new entrance and raise ceilings in Cirith Ungol for the possibility that Sauron might come to an inspection and would not fit into the rooms. If he really came (of course, we are talking all hypothetically here), he would fit - somehow. But when you saw him, you could not be sure, and at that moment his presence would overwhelm you to the point that you won't be able to think of how tall he exactly is. And once you were away from his presence and tried to imagine, you'd think "well, I am sure he was taller than me - a lot - he was taller than the door - terrible..." but again, you won't have anything that will help you exactly determine the height. It is as if you had some spooky experience, like that you are walking in a forest at night and suddenly something big and black with shining eyes appears between the trees... and it was only your neighbor's dog who might not be as big, but the impression in your mind is a lot different, and if you tried to determine how exactly big it was, you cannot do it from your memory. That's the impression I get from the description of Balrog, and I think it will be very fitting to see Sauron or Morgoth the same. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

08-04-2010, 07:49 PM	#5
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,509	I just keep seeing Rick Moranis reprising his role as Dark Helmet from Spaceballs. But this time, he is Sauron, looking every bit a tall and menacing Dark Lord -- that is, until he reaches for a Palantir and it turns out he's 5 feet tall. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

08-05-2010, 01:32 PM	#7
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	I see it now... The Mouth: "You're needed at the palantír, Your Dark Lordship." Sauron (hastily covering what he was doing with cloak of darkness): "KNOCK ON MY DOOR! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO KNOCK ON MY DOOR!" The Mouth: "Yes, Your Dark Lordship." Sauron: "Did you see anything?" The Mouth: "No, Your Dark Lordship, I didn't see you playing with your Galadriel puppet again." __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

08-05-2010, 05:39 PM	#9
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	And I see Madeline Kahn as Galadriel and Mel Brooks as Celeborn: (To Frodo as he leaves Lorien) "May the Schwartz be with you." __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'