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10-04-2009, 09:40 AM | #41 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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She was in Lórien again some twenty-nine years later (T.A 2980) when she and Aragorn plighted their troth. Also, The Tale of Years says this: Quote:
Which leads me to what I think is the greatest argument against her being a hardened adventurer who had faced real peril: if Arwen ever had been in any real danger, Elrond would surely have stopped allowing her to leave long before 3009. There's no one so paranoid as a father with a daughter. This I know from personal experience.
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10-04-2009, 10:56 AM | #42 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
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It's been interesting to see the ways in which this thread has drifted since I started it. As always, BDers provide a lot of information and insight into all things Tolkien.
To add a bit further, to this discussion, I had originally wondered about the age and wisdom discrepancy between Arwen and Aragorn solely as a matter of years and accumulated knowledge rather than as a matter between races. I know this tends to go back to a default of elves and men because elves have virtually ageless bodies and live thousands of years, but I thought this could apply to humans, as well. For example, some of the Numenoreans lived for centuries while "lesser men", who were still of the same race, lived only one century (at best). Perhaps even a common son of Numenor might often have looked at a Northwoman beauty and thought, "By Arda, but she is immature. Even at thirty."? I often wax philosophical about the subject of immortality, seeing as how we humans are forever looking for it. I think it would ultimately be a demographic disaster for humanity to discover a practical way to physically regenerate our aging bodies. Moreover, I think our human minds aren't hard-wired to handle immortality. To illustrate, I once wrote a series of short stories about a human male in a low-magic, early renaissance setting, who discovered that he never aged past thirty and had lived for over 900 years. Here is an excerpt I've pulled out of my computer's dustiest and most cobweb-filled archives: Quote:
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10-04-2009, 11:15 AM | #43 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2006
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thoughts on immortality... not quite Aragorn-Arwen
I think Elves have a different sort of immortality: they live, day after day, age after age, in the pursuit of Art, and if they get it, they seek to preserve it. It is in their nature to be artsy, even perfectionists, after all. I don't think they'd be bored... not even the hot-headed Feanor got bored; instead he sired seven sons and made endless jewels. Now one might argue that perhaps after the Silmarilli Feanor could have gotten bored of perfection, supposing things went well and Morgoth never happened... but I just don't see how Elves can get bored. I think they don't because the pursuit of perfection takes time (unless they're as terribly gifted as Feanor, but none have been); and when they do reach a certain level of perfection, like in Lothlorien perhaps, they tend to preserve, to freeze, that world of Art and are content within this space, living and wallowing in their glory.
Their notions of immortality are very different, from say Anne Rice's vampires, who don't really change but watch the world change, and thus lie their dilemmas. Rice's immortals are connected with the world; I think the Elves' forte is detachment from "worldly" concerns, especially seen after the Third Age. Like Galadriel, who though aids the Fellowship, laments the end of her perfect little world to which she has become attached. But that's just my interpretation.
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10-04-2009, 12:06 PM | #44 | |||
Dead Serious
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I quote the pertinent passage: Quote:
However... also from Unfinished Tales, and at variance with 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' is this excerpt from 'Amroth and Nimrodel': Quote:
Before I went on that massive quoting ramble, I meant to comment though about travel across Eriador, by referencing the Wandering Companies--such as Gildor Inglorion's, that Frodo et al met in the Shire. Granted, we are seeing them from a particularly Hobbit perspective, but one does not get the impression that the Elves would have been in much danger at any point in their wanderings--so Arwen traipsing across Eriador to reinforce her High Elven heritage among the remnants of the old Kingdom of Lindon doesn't look too dangerous--or is this just an illusion?
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10-04-2009, 05:24 PM | #45 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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The journeys of Arwen between Rivendell and Lorien would have undoubtedly been of some risk given the routes available and what had happened to her own mother on one of these routes. I don't doubt Elrond would have sought to keep them to a minimum - aside from Arwen being a much loved daughter, she would provide a powerful 'prize' for any miscreants who caught her. You'd imagine they would be carried out with all measures of security and secrecy that could be mustered.
So, there may well have been peril and there were ways of limiting the risk. But even so, just the fact of her having done some travelling does not make her an 'adventurer'. I'd rather hope to think that the wisdom she had gained through her years in Rivendell and Lorien was from observing the counsels of her father and grandparents, learning about the troubles in Middle-earth, and the history. Maybe this is part of what she saw in Aragorn? Knowing about his heritage? Now as for the Elves and their Art, I think that it was during the Third Age in particular that they entered a static state. This was after the misadventures with forging the Rings of Power, and after the Last Alliance. It was far too risky to attempt anything on the scale of the Rings again, and the Elves had to retrench and secure their borders. They became isolated and insular - you could say their brilliance faded. Art to the Elves in the Third Age would be centred around perfecting what they already had, not creating new and potentially dangerous concepts. There's also something essentially different about the creative impulses of Men and Elves. The former are mortal and one of the major impulses for them was to seek immortality in some way, either through deeds, arts or even literally. Men would ahve a drive to do these things knowing their time was limited. Elves on the other hand did not have this impetus. I think their focus was more on preserving the world around them in Middle-earth, which was alien to their nature, which also decayed like Men do.
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10-04-2009, 08:43 PM | #46 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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Not for most of the Third Age I would say, but in my opinion Tolkien had replaced Belfalas with Lindon, so (if so) they were arguably in Lindon at the beginning of the Third Age before Galadriel 'became filled with foreboding' (and so forth, as already posted above). This would fit nicely with Celeborn's fief in Harlindon too. |
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10-04-2009, 09:42 PM | #47 | |
Wight
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Posts: 204
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10-05-2009, 08:13 AM | #48 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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Thus, to my mind anyway, the 'latest' mention of any destination at this time appears to be Lindon; and Tolkien had also written ('in a note in unpublished material' according to note two of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn) the detail of Celeborn's rule in Harlindon, as well as connecting Celeborn more to Lindon (although admittedly vaguely) in the revised Lord of the Rings of the 1960s. Quote:
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10-05-2009, 12:21 PM | #49 | |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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Anyway, if you read the Unfinished Tales Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, there are abundant references to Celeborn having left Lindon in the 2nd century of the Second Age, and 1) either moving to Eriador, as I mentioned above, or 2) going to Eregion and/or Lothlorien. So the question becomes which of these comments is the latest from Tolkien...
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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10-05-2009, 01:13 PM | #50 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,034
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'She passed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' RGEO Now granted, this may be a very shortened account that simply doesn't mention any sojourn about Lake Nenuial -- or on the other hand perhaps this trip to Evendim was abandoned (as I tend to lean). In the older text it is noted that Amroth was born to Galadriel at this time near Nenuial, but later Tolkien revised the notion that Amroth was Galadriel's son, in any case. |
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10-05-2009, 09:45 PM | #51 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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Yes, I see now the passage about joining Gil-Galad in Lindon, which does seem to be the last (1969).
There seem to be 3-4 versions of the Galadriel and Celeborn story--I personally like the version in which they hung out in Nenuial in the Second Age. But also interesting is the late addition in the Unfinished Tales about the Third Age and the "long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north...", after which "Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years..." But I note in the Unfinished Tales that Quote:
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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