Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Elmo]

Do you think when Eowyn announced she was a shield-maiden anymore it shows Tolkien's contempt for feminism? Is he saying 'yes let the woman have fun playing as a man but eventually she has to grow up and get back in the kitchen'? Does Tolkien say that a woman needs a man to be complete or else she will be filled with pain and sorrow like Eowyn was before she announced her intention of being a wife to Faramir? That part of the book I think says that women can't be independent beings.

[Mithalwen]

No. (The library is about to chuck me out..I will explain later - but DEFINITELY NO!)

[Lindale]

It is misleading, but no. Warriors and healers aren't women's cup of tea in Tolkien; Eowyn's shift from one to the other doesn't mean she "degraded" herself or such. I like to think of her shift as the transition of the whole atmosphere from defending themselves with the sword and shield to healing the wounds of battle.

Of course there are oppressed women, like Erendis and Rian (who was more pathetic, in my opinion). And I don't deny Eowyn had her oppressed moments too. (Like, the way she got stuck with a sick Theoden, and her powerlessness when Theodred died and her brother wasn't there. But remember that the good guys do have their share of oppressed moments too.) And of course there'll be arguments that perhaps Galadriel isn't really a feminine woman. But for now--I'm writing a paper due in three hours!--I'm gonna have to say, Eowyn's shift from shield-maiden to healer, her shift from Theoden's caretaker to a lover of Aragorn to slayer of the Witch King to Faramir's wife doesn't make her any less valuable, any less a hero (or heroine, if you will).

I don't think Tolkien had contempt for feminism like, say, August Strindberg. Think Morwen, Ancalime, Luthien (arguably!!). Tolkien may have a dearth of female protagonists, but that doesn't really prove an author's, to use your word, contempt for feminism.

(Someone please post the link to the Ooh La La Luthien thread please. I think it's pretty much related. Sorry I haven't got time!)

[Rumil]

Here you go

Ooh la la Luthien

I think on Eowyn, Tolkien's take on Boromir and Faramir is relevant. Both were warriors, Boromir the more renowned, but solely concerned with war and politics, whereas Faramir was more interested in lore and culture, though still an effective leader.

JRRT evidently liked Faramir a lot more, and thought him the better man for being a warrior when needed, but being a man of peace by preference. The same seems to go for Eowyn.

[Lush]

LOL

How did I KNOW my thread was going to come up here?

Anyway, to answer your original question, Elmo, I think the answer is yes and no. Certainly Tolkien had his own ideas about women - some of which he ended up giving up on, from what I understand. I don't know what that means in the context of Eowyn. I personally don't like the fact that she became a healer, but I also like her words to Aragorn, at the end. Tolkien didn't quite tie her up with a pretty little bow.

[Nogrod]

One also needs to remember the times and the culture back then - and even if this discussion has been made I think a few times already - Tolkien's quite conservative views on many issues.

It is interersting indeed to see how PJ and his team had to artificially build up more central roles for females in the movies just because there was not enough in the books. I mean at the same time many of us (myself included) scorn the films for trying to please mass-audiences with all the horrible twists and turns of a blockbuster-film - the fact that Arwen has a lot larger role than in the books is just another facet of that same idea. So in a sense for example Legolas skating and Arwen substituting Glorfindel are the same thing: adjusting the story to today's requirements?

But coming to feminism the issue looks a lot more complicated I think. The thing we now know as feminism today is something which - even if it follows from the ideas of the utilitarians and the suffragettes of the 19th century - is basically a creation of the existentialists, 1960's, the various post-feminisms of the 80's & 90's etc. So obviously Tolkien couldn't have a contempt towards an idea much more radical he could have even think about...

And another issue that kind of comes to mind is making the difference between what an author hails as truth or goodness - or just the right order of things - in his own world-view, and what the people in the universe the author has created think about those issues. Surely Tolkien was looking at the great mythologies and looking at our history they tend to be "male-centered" stories. But he had also quite extensive knowledge of fex. the Kalevala which brings forward many independent and central female characters (like Galadriel in Tolkien's writings).

So it is a bit more complicated issue I'm afraid. Well, happy to be afraid of that as all simple things are usually quite boring...

[skip spence]

In Laws and customs of the Eldar Tolkien describes how high-Elven society looked upon gender-roles and such. I don't think it's unfair to assume that this is pretty much Tolkien's own ideal, especially since these morals are also indirectly expressed in many other parts of his tale.

He writes that the natural inclinations of the neri and nissi (men and women) were in some ways different, and that other differences were brought about by custom. Healing and caring about others were something nissi or women were more inclined to do, while the invention of new things and waging war was an area normally reserved for neri. I suppose Tolkien is saying that men and women (of the Noldor) generally had different comparative advantages, to borrow a term from economic theory.

However, Tolkien is very clear that these divisions were not set in stone, and that women might indeed be great warriors and men healers without there being anything wrong with that. He writes:

Originally Posted by HoME X (Laws and customs...)

...all these things, and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knowledge concerning being and the life of the World, may at times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi.

The thing is, I get the feeling that Tolkien, being a gentle sort of conservative, indeed though that a women's place is rather at home, healing, nursing and preserving. However, there is no sign (in his ME books) that he thinks less of women than of men because of this (or any other reason) or that he disapproves of strong women who step out of their traditional gender roles when this is necessary, like Eowyn. On the contrary, the sentiment I get is one of great admiration. But when the necessity is gone, and Eowyn is returning to more, well, "feminine pursuits" this is not regressing to a lesser state in any way. She does is freely without diminishing herself or bending her will to Faramir.

Rumil is spot on really:

I think on Eowyn, Tolkien's take on Boromir and Faramir is relevant. Both were warriors, Boromir the more renowned, but solely concerned with war and politics, whereas Faramir was more interested in lore and culture, though stil an effective leader.

JRRT evidently liked Faramir a lot more, and thought him the better man for being a warrior when needed, but being a man of peace by preference. The same seems to go for Eowyn.

And as Nogrod says, Tolkien is certainly not showing contempt for "feminism". That particular term is completely irrelevant in relation to these stories.

Originally Posted by Lindale

I don't think Tolkien had contempt for feminism like, say, August Strindberg

Ha! I'm glad Strindberg is off topic so I don't have to go there.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Y'know, when I was a kid and first read LotR, I never thought that Eowyn was putting aside a traditionally male role and taking on a traditionally female one. I wasn't quite sure what I thought about it, but looking back now (especially after having gone through years of therapy to overcome the effects of being born into a highly abusive family, in which the controlling parent didn't allow anyone to choose their role in the family, much less in life), things are clearer. Eowyn in Rohan was chafing under what she perceived to be a thankless role that was forced upon her, that of staying home and caring for Theoden while her brother rode off to the excitement and freedom and glory of war. I don't think she was bothered by the "feminine role," since she genuinely loved and cared for Theoden, and had apparently done enough as a strong leader to make the people of Rohan love and respect her, and want her to lead and help defend them in the absence of the king. In this, she shows that she has both leadership and nurturing qualities. It was the whisperings of Wormtongue that made her discontent, with her apparent lot in life, and in herself (as Gandalf points out to Eomer while Eowyn lies stricken in the Houses of Healing). I don't think the tale of Eowyn shows a contempt for feminism, or a belief that women should "stay in their place." I believe it's a little morality play of its own about the evils of heart and soul that befall a person when they deny who and what they are in their own right. By rebelling against her life in Edoras and desiring to ride away to war, Eowyn was denying the part of her that truly was a healer and nurturer. Wormtongue had made her think that these parts of herself were mean and worthless, that the only thing worthwhile in life was the glory of battle; it was another way of weakening Rohan from within, as Denethor's use of the palantir weakened Gondor from within. When Eowyn says she will be a shield maiden no more, she is making a choice free of manipulation, and accepting a part of herself she had been rejecting. She never says she will cease being a leader, but she has now had a taste of the reality of war, and glory won on the battlefield, and thus can now make a choice concerning the direction of her life that is based on experience rather than conjecture. She is no longer denying her true self.

Or maybe she just decided the grass was greener on that side of the fence.

[davem]

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

[Lush]

I laughed so hard that I ruined my mascara. Thanks, davem.

[A Little Green]

I think the answer to Elmo's question depends entirely on whether you read Éowyn's tale as a metaphor of a woman's life in general or as the story of one individual. I like to think that it was Éowyn's choice as an individual person and has nothing to do with what Tolkien thought a woman should choose. There is a part of me, though, that is bound to read a more general meaning to her choice. It can be read as "Éowyn was never truly happy playing a man but learns at last her true nature, finds her way to a nice man and a womanly profession and becomes happy as soon as she learns her true and proper place in society". That, I think, is a slightly disturbing way of interpretation but it pops into my mind nevertheless every time I read the LotR.

Actually, I find it rather amusing that I should be upset by someone choosing to be a healer rather than a killer, choosing peace over war. If the one making that choice was a man I would go "Wow, that's so cool of him, great choice!" but since it's a woman my first thought is "Oh crap why does she have to submit to oppressive gender roles in order to become happy?" Thinking rationally, turning from a fighter to a healer should be just as cool done by a woman as it would be if done by a man, and yet somehow I don't feel like it. Now where's the equality in that?

[Mithalwen]

Healing is not a specifically female thing - in Gondor women serve in the houses of healing but the herb-master is a man. I am sure that Eowyn intended to be a Doctor not a nurse....

Do you think less of Elrond because he chose to be a master of healing but let Glorfindel lead Rivendell's military force? Eowyn is not choosing between a male and female role but between life and death. Anyway she had nowhere left to go in achievement after wiping out the Lord of the Nazgul really... Anyone would think that shield maiding were her sole vocation rather than a necessity borne of the desperate times and situation she was living in.

David Doughan gave a splendid talk on Women in Tolkien at Oxonmoot a few years back and it is clear that his attitude changed significantly - he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir.

My theory is that we can thank Priscilla for that .... having intelligent daughters makes a certain degree of feminism inevitable for the most chauvenist man since whatever they think about women in general is tempered by desiring the best for their daughters and that tends not to involve limiting their rights, education and life choices.

Priscilla is the possessor of a keen intellect, had a very good education for a women of her generation and became a probation officer which is hardly a typical female career even today. I am sure she and some of the outstanding female students Tolkien had must have influenced some of the antediluvian attitude Tolkien held about women - before he met many

[Tuor in Gondolin]

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw,
he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting
people, no doubt also birthers and deathers.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny".:

No - come on, its clearly meant to be a satirical deconstruction of right-wing extremism 'n' all post-modern 'n' stuff - me 'n' Lush laughed at it anyway..... How do you seriously get from Eowyn's hopeless yearning for death in battle to denouncing Medicare as 'evil'? Besides, a careful reading of LotR clearly shows that Gondor has a National Health Service - "The Houses of Healing" = NHS: treatment free at the point of use- you notice no-one gets asked for their Insurance details before getting treated for the effects of the Black Breath! And I have to say that the Master of the Houses & Ioreth are clearly models for Kenneth Williams & Hattie Jaques in Peter Rogers seminal masterpiece Carry On Matron

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by davem

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way. .

'pplicability, innit? One reason, I suppose, why Tolkien went out of his way to stress that the story had no underlying meaning or message. It has always fascinated me how readers attempt to use Tolkien's writings to support their own religious or political stance. The author of that piece simply gets Eowyn wrong - she's not about what he says she's about. Actually, she's seriously ill - soul sick if you will - & seriously in need of healing herself. And anyone who's been really sick & comes through it to health & happiness knows exactly why Eowyn wishes to become a healer herself. One has to understand the hopeless state she is in, seeking death because life is dead & grey & hopeless, & if she doesn't end it it will just go on & on & on. Coming from a warrior culture its natural that if she is seeking death she should seek it on the field - hopefully achieving some kind of renown in the process - but let's be under no illusion that what she wants is the death: the glory is just the icing on the cake. To present her as an 'ideal', someone women should aspire to be, is idiotic. The writer is simply hearing her words, not what she is saying.

Thus, the writer's final paragraph:

Nevertheless, let us all be valiant like Eowyn; break free from the cages of welfare, universal health care, government-controlled Social Security, policies advocating the stealing of money from one group and giving it to another group who didn't earn it, and let all Americans boldly face our destiny with courage, individual effort and the power of God.

borders on the inane - because Eowyn's story has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of Welfare or Medicare. One can relate Eowyn's story to the sufferings of contemporary individuals (as one can with the stories of many of the characters) but not to contemporary political arguments. Arguing that big government/welfare/Medicare = Mordor & therefore must be fought by free, right thinking individuals is as silly as arguing that multi-national drug companies & insurance companies = Mordor & government must protect all the people - not just the ones considered 'deserving' (There but for the Grace of God......) & ensure their health & well-being. And those comparisons are 'silly' not because one cannot validly argue the rightness & wrongness of either position, but because neither big government nor big business = Mordor.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, she's seriously ill - soul sick if you will - & seriously in need of healing herself. And anyone who's been really sick & comes through it to health & happiness knows exactly why Eowyn wishes to become a healer herself.

I quite agree. However, I think it would be a mistake, both over-simplistic and tending toward sexism, to see her words to Aragorn and her going into battle as completely wrong or mistaken, nothing but the symptoms of a sick soul. Yes, her hopelessness and desire for a swift death are in a sense 'sick'. But this does not deprive her words of their force or even their rightness. There is sexism in Rohan, as there is everywhere, and Eowyn is right to call it out. Indeed, it is in part the male-centric nature of Rohirric society that fuels her hopelessness in the first place. The Rohirric culture is one in which the honour and glory of battle are prized above just about all else, and of course women are not permitted to have those things. In dire times such as the War of the Ring, the men are permitted to go and face death themselves and by their own skills to overcome it or succumb to it; the women are forced to wait at home in uncertainty and compelled to entrust their lives to the deeds of others. That system is cruel to the women, and Eowyn's hopelessness is a natural result. She is perfectly justified in railing against her situation, just as Merry is.

Let's also not forget the result of Eowyn's 'sick' actions. Undoubtedly, the slaying of the Witch-king was a very good thing. Had Eowyn not gone into battle, it seems very likely that the outcome of the battle might have been different. A grim and hopeless desire for death or glory is in itself not good; but in war few things are. Eowyn's sickness ultimately helped to defeat Sauron.

That's why I don't see Eowyn's transformation in the Houses of Healing as anti-feminist. If you ask me, her personal healing has little to do with the fact that she is a woman and everything to do with the fact that she was a warrior. A man who was as desirous of a glorious death in battle would be in need of exactly the same kind of healing. I think, then, that Eowyn's sickness says something about what war does to people, and her recovery about the need to reclaim one's life, to forsake killing and destroying and take up healing and creating, after war.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The Rohirric culture is one in which the honour and glory of battle are prized above just about all else, and of course women are not permitted to have those things. In dire times such as the War of the Ring, the men are permitted to go and face death themselves and by their own skills to overcome it or succumb to it; the women are forced to wait at home in uncertainty and compelled to entrust their lives to the deeds of others. That system is cruel to the women, and Eowyn's hopelessness is a natural result. She is perfectly justified in railing against her situation, just as Merry is.

I wonder how 'male-centric' Rohan is - certainly it is in comparison to the modern Western ideal, but its quite an advance on what many women face in parts of the world even today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8204207.stm . And if we assume that Aragorn didn't just make up the term 'shield maiden' on the spot then we can also assume that it was not entirely uncommon for women to fight - perhaps part of Eowyn's frustration was that she couldn't take up that traditional female role due her duty of care for her uncle. I wouldn't necessarily assume that that the Rohirric system is 'cruel to women'. I'm sure Eowyn wasn't unique among the women of that country in being able to use a sword. In short, I don't believe that Eowyn is actually desiring something unique - just possibly something that was out of fashion. Or possibly not - maybe women did commonly fight, if only in defence of their homes. I wouldn't be surprised at the existence of a few shield maidens in Rohan or to discover incidents of Hillmen & Orcs attacking a settlement & suddenly finding themselves face to face with a woman or two in armour, wielding spear or sword.

Hence my feeling that her words are more of a cover up for her real desire - to go down in a blaze of glory & gain the respect & honour in death that she finds it impossible to obtain in life. She doesn't desire to fight to defend her people - she desires to die defending them.

Let's also not forget the result of Eowyn's 'sick' actions. Undoubtedly, the slaying of the Witch-king was a very good thing. Had Eowyn not gone into battle, it seems very likely that the outcome of the battle might have been different. A grim and hopeless desire for death or glory is in itself not good; but in war few things are. Eowyn's sickness ultimately helped to defeat Sauron.

No. but should we judge her mental/spiritual motivation by the unintended result of her actions, or by her motivating desire? She didn't go to battle to defeat the Witch King & save the world, she went to get herself killed. That she did succeed in helping dispatch him is a nice bit of serendipity, but she had no idea that stabbing him would have any effect at all, let alone that it would finish him off.

[Elmo]

Regarding previous shield-women, they may have defended their homes before, I don't think they've ever went to war. Isn't there a quote by Eomer(?) saying something to this effect?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There's also a bit of a comparison to Eowyn with other
peoples, when the women of the Wainriders help fend
off the woodsmen attacking their wagons and children
while their army is off attacking Gondor.

In 1899, the Wainriders planned an invasion of Gondor. At the same time, the enslaved Northmen intended to revolt against the Wainriders. Marhwini of the Eotheod learned of these plans and informed King Calimehtar of Gondor.
Calimehtar led an army to draw out the Wainriders while the enslaved Northmen attacked the Wainriders' settlements in Wilderland. But the settlements were guarded by the Wainriders' women, youths, and old men, and most of the rebelling Northmen were killed.

Apparently it's not nice to mess with Middle-earth women.

[Aiwendil]

Davem -

You make a fair point about the possibility that other 'shield-maidens' existed in Rohan, despite the fact that we don't have any concrete evidence that they did.

To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that the Rohirrim were terribly misogynistic, and indeed as you say there are places in the world today where women have it much, much worse. I do think the culture is androcentric, but this isn't anything unique to Rohan. Indeed, I would argue that women have been subjugated to one degree or another in pretty much every human culture that has ever existed.

More to the point, however, I think that the existence or non-existence of other female warriors in Rohan is actually somewhat immaterial. The fact is that Eowyn is constrained by her society to a role that she finds hateful; she is denied the glory of battle that is so highly prized and compelled to entrust her fate to others. Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

They may be just - but equally they may not be what she really means. In other words, she may (& this is my take on it) be using them to cover up her real motives. I don't think she does want the 'glory of battle', I think she wants out, & has latched onto the idea of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori as a way to avoid the 'cowardly' option of suicide. Glory in battle for her is the means to an end, not the end itself. She wants to join the glorious dead. I don't honestly believe that she wanted to fight a glorious battle & come out the other end still breathing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by davem

They may be just - but equally they may not be what she really means. In other words, she may (& this is my take on it) be using them to cover up her real motives. I don't think she does want the 'glory of battle', I think she wants out, & has latched onto the idea of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori as a way to avoid the 'cowardly' option of suicide. Glory in battle for her is the means to an end, not the end itself. She wants to join the glorious dead. I don't honestly believe that she wanted to fight a glorious battle & come out the other end still breathing.

To interject for a moment, I think there's a quote that supports davem's position. When Merry first saw Éowyn in her Dernhelm guise:

(Merry) caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.

ROTK The Muster of Rohan

[Pitchwife]

Just a few quotes to support davem's argument -
Merry's first impression of Dernhelm (LotR Book V, The Muster of Rohan):

He caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.

Referred back to in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields:

For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow; the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope.

And Aragorn in The Houses of Healing:

'I have, maybe, the power to heal her body, and to recall her from the dark valley. But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring. Alas! for her deeds have set her among the queens of great renown.'

EDIT: x-ed with Inzil

[Aiwendil]

I don't deny for an instant that Eowyn had a kind of 'soul sickness', that she was hopeless and sought death. Nor that it is good that she recovers from it - as it would be whether the sufferer were a man or a woman.

I just can't help but to feel that there is a rightness in her words to Aragorn. The constraints she feels are real (if they were not, there would be no need for her disguise), and regardless of her motive, she is right to question them. Moreover, as I see it, her 'sickness', her hopelessness, is in part caused by those very constraints. Is it so difficult to sympathize with her when she says:

Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?

or:

All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.

I for one can't help but to be moved by these words, and even though she is grim and soul-sick and in need of healing, I cannot brush them aside as symptoms of an ill mind.

[davem]

Er, well, right...quite surprised no-one picked up on my deliberate mistake a few posts back..

And if we assume that Aragorn didn't just make up the term 'shield maiden' on the spot then we can also assume that it was not entirely uncommon for women to fight

Obviously, it wasn't Aragorn who used the term shieldmaiden at all, but Eowyn herself:

'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of he House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'

so, er, just pay attention in future guys, ok...

Anyway, now that's cleared up, let's agree to never mention it again....

'kay...as I said, I don't dispute that Eowyn is speaking the truth about the state of of women in Rohan (or that's how a modern reader would interpret it - I don't know whether that's how Tolkien intended it to be understood, but we'll let that pass. What does interest me is Eowyn's plaintive 'may I not now spend my life as I will?', because 'spend' in this context has a double meaning - she may well be asking 'May I not live my life as I will?, but I don't think she is - I think she is asking 'May I not expend my life as I will?

Now, I think she believes what she's saying - that she wants to be like the boys & go to battle & win renown. But its not so simple. Her death wish is obvious to anyone looking at her (Merry for instance) but it may not be plain to her. She probably does fantasise about winning glory on the field, but she sees that 'glory' coming as a result of falling in combat. I honestly don't think she could conceive of not dying on the field. She wanted to die for the cause, yes, but the cause, however genuine, (& however complex - because I agree that the 'enemy' in her mind was not simply Sauron, it was also the restrictive male dominated society she lived in, & she sought liberation from both - & also from her own despair) was her justification for 'spending' her life.

And I have to rush off now - but I did want to bring up Eomer's words to Aragorn:

(Aragorn)When I first looked on her and perceived her unhappiness, it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. Or was it, maybe, a frost that had turned its sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die? Her malady begins far back before this day, does it not, Eomer?'

(Eomer)'I marvel that you should ask me, lord,' he answered. 'For I hold you blameless in this matter, as in all else; yet I knew not that Eowyn, my sister, was touched by any frost, until she first looked on you.

Implying that Aragorn had awakened some kind of hope of a larger life for her - & then dashed it, & that that had pushed her over the edge. I'm not so sure - I don't think Aragorn did anything that wouldn't have happened anyway. What his appearance & rejection did, to my mind, was tip her over the edge - but it was an edge that she had been getting closer & closer to, & would had happened anyway.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

[Lindale]

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

Anyway I think this is of little consequence, relative to davem & company's arguments about what went on in Eowyn's head.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

Anyway I think this is of little consequence, relative to davem & company's arguments about what went on in Eowyn's head.

In my opinion, Haleth was a terrible leader, who caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering to her people with her pride and her pointless quest to go ever more west. But that's another thread.

[Aiwendil]

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

As I recall, the Rohirrim are probably 'cousins' of the House of Hador, rather, who never crossed over the Blue Mountains. But I cannot recall a source for that.

In any case, the Halethrim are undoubtedly another very important topic in dealing with women and feminism in Tolkien. As Elmo suggests, it would make an interesting thread in itself (I can't say I agree with Elmo's opinion of Haleth).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

True but I think there was more to it - but I need to locate my notes to remember what. So I'll go and dig.

[Faramir Jones]

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor. If, for example, an ordinary Rider ordered to stay in Rohan behaved the same way she did, he would quite rightly be seen as having deserted his post and disobeyed orders, and would suffer serious disciplinary action. Eowyn, however, did not.

While she is a member of the royal family, this would add to the obligation to behave properly, to set a standard of behaviour for the people. My own view is that she was very lucky in fighting the Witch-king and being very seriously wounded. This was, presumably, seen by many as a sufficient punishment for her desertion.

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

What do people think?

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

I think they love her too much to judge her... and remember that this was a time of war; could they afford to think of such "trivial" things, like her joining them? Would they perhaps be angry when they discover her? Likely, but I think they couldn't spend too much time for that; the most they could have done was send her home with an escort and a terrible sermon.

Or perhaps, would they have deemed the judgment of making Eowyn regent a bad idea (because girls-can't-follow-orders-the-way-real-men-could)? I like the idea. Remember that it wasn't Theoden's or Eomer's choice to make her regent? It was Hama's suggestion, who thought that the last of the House of Eorl weren't Theoden and Eomer but Eowyn. That'll justify chauvinist thoughts that politics and war aren't really women's cup of tea, and that Eowyn, who already knows "necessary" self-defense (think "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"), is meant to stay at home and prepare/keep safe her men's food and bed.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

What do people think?

I think that she was beyond caring about such things. She would have gone out looking for death by some other, probably less honourable means if she had survived the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

[Alfirin]

I for one, agree with the though that Eowyn's choice might have been considered serious deriliction of duty and indeed had she survived without wound she might have had a trial in her future (assuming Rohan uses the trial by jury system) In some ways this is another advantage to her marrying Faramir, it gets her out of Rohan while she is still seen as a big war heroine, before the ardor of the people cools and akward questions like the above get asked. Lucky for her nothing happened in her absense. Imagine the reception she would have gotten if in her absence Rohan really had been attacked (maybe by a large force of Dunlendings off to join Sauron at the battle who saw the King and co. departing and though this too good an opportunity to miss).

Since we are speculating a bit I had a though of my own. Does anyone else think its possible that this wasn't the first time Eowyn had played at being Durnhelm. No one in the muster seems to find it odd that a warrior called Durnhelm is riding with them a warrior who, if this was the first time, nobody would have ever seen before. More to the point, Theoden has no problem having Durnhelm as his standard bearer and right hand man in the battle itself. As I recall, Theoden (who as king presumably has the choice of anyone in the whole muster to ride with him in battle as standard bearer) specifically asks for Durnhelm which is a little odd for someone he would have never seen before (if you were picking someone to ride with you as your bearer woulnt you choose someone you knew was reliable in a pinch rather that a complete stranger?)

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Alfirin, I think you'll find that Guthlaf was Theoden's standard-bearer, not Eowyn/Dernhelm.

Eowyn seems to have ridden to Gondor in Elfhelm's wing, then sneaked up to the back of Theoden's First Eored just before the first charge is going in (after gaining the outworks).

Though I must say I do think that something peculiar is going on here, does Elfhelm know that Dernhelm is Eowyn? He certainly knows all about 'Master Bag', and

there seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm

Not sure how far this goes! Is Elfhelm simply in on the plan to bring Merry along or is he in on the identity of Eowyn? If so, why not expose her?

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for all the responses!

Lindale:

You first said here that:

I think they love her too much to judge her... and remember that this was a time of war; could they afford to think of such "trivial" things, like her joining them? Would they perhaps be angry when they discover her? Likely, but I think they couldn't spend too much time for that; the most they could have done was send her home with an escort and a terrible sermon.

I think you're wrong; because in the sort of system of government Rohan had monarchs ruled as well as reigned; and matters concerning members of the royal family would be dealt with by the monarch.

Like a person in any position of considerable power, Eowyn's uncle or brother would be making decisions that they would find unpleasant. That would include sitting in judgement on close relatives, such as Eowyn. While there's no doubt that they genuinely loved her, it would still be their duty as monarchs to judge her bad behaviour.

Second, you said that:

Or perhaps, would they have deemed the judgment of making Eowyn regent a bad idea (because girls-can't-follow-orders-the-way-real-men-could)? I like the idea. Remember that it wasn't Theoden's or Eomer's choice to make her regent? It was Hama's suggestion, who thought that the last of the House of Eorl weren't Theoden and Eomer but Eowyn. That'll justify chauvinist thoughts that politics and war aren't really women's cup of tea, and that Eowyn, who already knows "necessary" self-defense (think "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"), is meant to stay at home and prepare/keep safe her men's food and bed.

You're wrong in saying that it was Hama's choice to make her regent. Hama suggested her appointment to Theoden, who followed his advice and chose to make her regent. The appointment appeared to be a popular choice, Eowyn being regarded as a woman of ability.

I suggest that the fact of her desertion might rebound on Theoden, or his historical reputation if he died in battle. He was, after all, the one who appointed her as regent; and like any one who appoints unqualified people who turn out badly, would take any blame.

Eonwe:

I agree with your suggestion that had Eowyn survived the battle, she would still be 'looking for death by some other, probably less honourable means'.

Alfirin:

I'd reached the same conclusion as you that by her marriage to Faramir, Eowyn became a Gondorian, and was conveniently outside the influence of the law of Rohan. I agree completely with what you said here:

it gets her out of Rohan while she is still seen as a big war heroine, before the ardor of the people cools and awkward questions like the above get asked. Lucky for her nothing happened in her absense. Imagine the reception she would have gotten if in her absence Rohan really had been attacked (maybe by a large force of Dunlendings off to join Sauron at the battle who saw the King and co. departing and though this too good an opportunity to miss).

There is still the issue, as you and Rumil have said, about what kind of understanding was between Elfhelm and Dernhelm. While there are explanations for why Eowyn's desertion had no legal consequences for her, I'm more surprised that Elfhelm's giving aid and comfort to a deserter appeared to have no such consequences for him. After all, he is the equivalent of a senior officer, of whom much would be expected.

[Alfirin]

I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some history between Eowyn and Elfhelm. I don't mean romatically but maybe in more of a mentor role. Maybe it was Elfhelm who taught her swordsmanship (I don't seem to recall any mention of how old Elfhelm was if he is a well seasoned warrior in his mid to late 50's or even early 60's, he could have already been a good strong warrior (and as such, a potential effective teacher for Eowyn) when Eowyn was a child. This would also fit with her joining Elfhelm's group, it would be the onle place where, if she was unmasked on the way she probably could get away with continuing on the ride rather than being sent home.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some history between Eowyn and Elfhelm. I don't mean romatically but maybe in more of a mentor role. Maybe it was Elfhelm who taught her swordsmanship (I don't seem to recall any mention of how old Elfhelm was if he is a well seasoned warrior in his mid to late 50's or even early 60's, he could have already been a good strong warrior (and as such, a potential effective teacher for Eowyn) when Eowyn was a child. This would also fit with her joining Elfhelm's group, it would be the onle place where, if she was unmasked on the way she probably could get away with continuing on the ride rather than being sent home.

According to UT Elfhelm was part of the Muster of Edoras, so I'd think that at least a possibility.

[Rumil]

OK,

lots of what-ifs here, but,

Suppose Elfhelm knew that Dernhelm was Eowyn. Why allow her to go? This might bring us back to the original question!

For some reason I've always though of Elfhelm as a youngish chap, 20s-30s anyway, no idea why!

Anyway. Imagine that Elfhelm was a friend of Eowyn (even just possibly rather liked her in a romantic way!), and of course the top nobles would all know one-another pretty well. Why be sympathetic to Eowyn's wish to ride to battle? He probably wasn't aware of her deathwish. Perhaps this gives us some insight into Rohirric gender roles with respect to warfare.

Did Elfhelm feel that it was Eowyn's 'right' to go into battle as a shieldmaiden, should she choose to do so? I could certainly imagine a friend of Eomer doing the same for him if he had been 'left on the bench'.

Perhaps this was based on some old saga or song or something that provided legendary precedent, or a real incident from Rohan's past? Maybe Elfhelm had lost hope too and thought it was more glorious for Eowyn to go down fighting in a hopeless battle than wait for Rohan to be over-run?

Eomer I think later denies that any other women of Rohan have ridden to battle, but did he personally check all 6000 'men'? - He'd have got some funny looks!