Frodo's Barrow Dilemma

[Inziladun]

(Frodo) wondered if he put on the Ring, whether the Barrow-wight would miss him, and he might find some way out.

FOTR Fog On the Barrow-Downs

Here are some novel questions: Would the wight have seen him? Do they inhabit the same shadow-world as the Nazgûl? Would this plan of Frodo's have been viable (though cowardly)?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Mostly offtopic but, if he put it on and the Wight saw
and killed him and the hobbits, then what? How
about: Strider soon gets antsy at Bree and probes
around, talks to Bombadil and they find the ring.
Strider goes to the chatfest at Rivendell and...Bilbo
takes the ring! (remember Gollum lived for centuries
and moved around when in possession of the ring).
Alternately, Sam (and perhaps Merry and
Pippin) survive to accompany Bilbo.

[Hakon]

I think the Barrow Wight would have seen him. Since Tom Bombadil is a foreign entity to Middle Earth, then I think that no matters what realm one inhabits in that piece of land they can be seen. I remember there was a letter where Tolkien talked about the overlapping planes of existence. I think someone posted part of the letter in some thread.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

FOTR Fog On the Barrow-Downs

Here are some novel questions: Would the wight have seen him? Do they inhabit the same shadow-world as the Nazgûl? Would this plan of Frodo's have been viable (though cowardly)?

The wights were spirits from Angmar and Rhudaur sent by the Witch-King to inhabit the barrows (see App.A). As spirits they belonged to the Spirit world, to the World of the Unseen, so a person wearing the Ring would be fully visible to them. It was a very BAD plan.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Mostly offtopic but, if he put it on and the Wight saw
and killed him and the hobbits, then what?

Then there is the question who gets to this Barrow first: Tom or the Witch-King. Both are nearby and one of them would almost certainly come before Aragorn.

If Tom gets the Ring, he would likely willingly surrender it to Aragorn. And the latter would have to carry the Ring to Rivendell on his own: a severe trial for him... almost impossible not to succomb to the Ring's lure.

Because with Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin dead, where would Aragorn get more hobbits? Maybe he could persuade Bob or Nob to take over?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I think the Barrow Wight would have seen him. Since Tom Bombadil is a foreign entity to Middle Earth, then I think that no matters what realm one inhabits in that piece of land they can be seen.

But then how come only Tom could see him when he put on the ring? The others couldn't. Tom, however can see everything in his land.

However, with the Wights being spirits, it doesn't matter, as they would probably see Frodo better if he put the ring on.

[Hakon]

Eönwë, you are right about that. I want to add something more to this post but I got nothing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The wights were spirits from Angmar and Rhudaur sent by the Witch-King to inhabit the barrows (see App.A). As spirits they belonged to the Spirit world, to the World of the Unseen, so a person wearing the Ring would be fully visible to them. It was a very BAD plan.

The wights appear to have some notable differences from the Ringwraiths, and there seems to be evidence against wights being able to see one wearing the Ring.

Trembling (Frodo) looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. It leaned over him. He thought there were two eyes, very cold though lit with a pale light that seemed to come from some remote distance. Then a grip stronger and colder than iron seized him.

FOTR Fog On the Barrow-Downs

Frodo, without wearing the Ring, was able to see the Wight. Compare this to the Ringwraiths, that are completely invisible to mortals unless they wear clothing to give shape to themselves.
If Frodo could see the Wight without the Ring, and it could plainly see him, I am inclined to think it could not have seen him while he wore it.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Frodo, without wearing the Ring, was able to see the Wight. Compare this to the Ringwraiths, that are completely invisible to mortals unless they wear clothing to give shape to themselves.
If Frodo could see the Wight without the Ring, and it could plainly see him, I am inclined to think it could not have seen him while he wore it.

But Frodo could see the bones, not the spirit itself. I think the spirit, not the physical body (or rather, bones) could see him with the ring, as spirits are on the Other Side.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But Frodo could see the bones, not the spirit itself. I think the spirit, not the physical body (or rather, bones) could see him with the ring, as spirits are on the Other Side.

Would a mere skeleton be described as a 'tall dark figure like a shadow'? Wouldn't you think Frodo would have described bare bones, if that's what he'd seen?

It seems the 'What are Barrow-wights?' question once again rears its ugly head.
The wights must have had a corporeal form.

Round the corner a long arm was groping, walking on its fingers towards Sam, who was lying nearest....

FOTR Fog On the Barrow-Downs

That arm was not described as 'skeletal' either.
I've heard arguments that what Frodo saw in the barrow were the animated remains of who was buried there, and the same spell that preserved the weapons and treasure it contained also kept the remains from corruption. It is unlikely the arm was merely dead flesh, however.

Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.

ROTK App A

In the days of Argeleb II....an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mound and welt there.

ROTK App A

Argeleb II's reign presumably began upon the death of his father, Araphor in 1589, and Argeleb died in 1670. Therefore, those remains had to have been in the barrow at least 180 years, plenty of time for advanced decomposition before the Wight arrived, so the arm Frodo saw could not have been part of the corpse.

[Findegil]

Don't forgett that we talk about a Númenorean Prince. The Númenoreans had developt the art of precerving the flash for long times in Númenore and the Exiles brought that art to Middle-Earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Boromir88]

Would a mere skeleton be described as a 'tall dark figure like a shadow'? Wouldn't you think Frodo would have described bare bones, if that's what he'd seen?~Inziladun

Playing too much WW? That logic may be reasonable to use there, but not sure I like it being used with the books. No one is really in a position to argue what Frodo 'should' have said (or Tolkien 'should' have written) if he saw a bunch of bones, or whatever it is he saw.

'dark figure' is a generic descriptor that was used for lots of things in LOTR.

"the shadow" and "dark figure" were interchanged for the Balrog.

Sauron was a "dark figure" taking the shape of a man...'"yet greater." (Letter 246)

The beasts that attacked the company were first described as "dark wolf-shapes."

And I'm sure the Ringwraiths were referred to as "dark figures" more than once.

A few paragraphs before the dark was described as "near and thick," Frodo is terrifed, fell on the ground, and seconds away from conking out. We have no clue about the details of the Barrow-wight, because Frodo has no clue. It's tall, dark, a figure, and cold. It could be a spirit inhabitting some guys bones, or it could have been a nargle for all Frodo knew.

You expect Frodo (and Tolkien) to give us a clear description of every evil creature, spirit, or thing out there that Frodo and our heroes encounter? Ha.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You expect Frodo (and Tolkien) to give us a clear description of every evil creature, spirit, or thing out there that Frodo and our heroes encounter? Ha.

I don't expect all to be crystal clear; indeed that takes some of the magic away from the story. But I can't help thinking that a skeleton and a more solid form are different enough in appearance that Frodo would have used different wording if what he was seeing was empty bones. He was not viewing the wight in total darkness, but against the stars.
To be sure, there's still some ambiguity. That said, I don't see why the wight must possess no solid form of its own.
As to the 'embalming' question, the Númenóreans certainly took actions to preserve the bodies of at least their kings and rulers after death. However, the death of that unnamed prince occurred during a time of desperate fighting, and I have to wonder whether taking the time to embalm him would have been wise or feasible at that time.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As to the 'embalming' question, the Númenóreans certainly took actions to preserve the bodies of at least their kings and rulers after death. However, the death of that unnamed prince occurred during a time of desperate fighting, and I have to wonder whether taking the time to embalm him would have been wise or feasible at that time.

Well, there is my theory that the Downs are in fact a peat bog (or at least were when the bodies were buried)and that, when the water table is high the insides of the barrows are filled with peat juice effectively pickling the bodies naturally. The only catch I can think of is that the swords would still need some sort of preserving enchantment, since acidic peat juice would pit the hell out of iron and steel.

[Boromir88]

I don't expect all to be crystal clear; indeed that takes some of the magic away from the story. But I can't help thinking that a skeleton and a more solid form are different enough in appearance that Frodo would have used different wording if what he was seeing was empty bones.~Inziladun

But that's my point Frodo didn't describe empty bones, because he didn't know what he saw other than an ambigious 'dark figure' which has been used to describe many things veiled in darkness or shadow. Could have been a spirit animating a skeleton, or a nemotoad, or any thing you could call a 'dark figure' (so...virtually anything).

The Balrog, Ringwraiths and such, we encounter more, and there is the chance for more description. Frodo doesn't get this with the Barrow-wight, just as Gandalf doesn't tell us anymore about the 'dark gnawing' creatures at the bottom of the bottomless pit. We don't get more from Gandalf, because he was having Balrog issues and probably didn't care to investigate into more detail about the Moria critters.

I'm not saying you aren't correct, maybe there was more than just bones to the wight, but pointing out because you think Frodo would have described empty bones differently, if he had seen just empty bones, I don't agree with that type of argument. Because all Frodo described was a dark figure (not surprising in a dark, foggy area) and a cold hand grasped him tight.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

I doubt they would have seen him. Whereas the Ringwraiths were cunning enemies and the cream of Sauron's crop, the Barrow-Wights were merely puppets. Called up by the Witch-King if I am not mistaken.
And whilst the Nazgul were neither dead nor alive, the Barrow-Wights were most certainly dead. So, no ring-vision for them!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Gothbogg the Ripper

I doubt they would have seen him. Whereas the Ringwraiths were cunning enemies and the cream of Sauron's crop, the Barrow-Wights were merely puppets. Called up by the Witch-King if I am not mistaken.
And whilst the Nazgul were neither dead nor alive, the Barrow-Wights were most certainly dead. So, no ring-vision for them!

I disagree. It is not a question of Power, it is a question of access to the Spirit World.

Putting on the Ring, Frodo is transferred from the ordinary physical world into the Shadow/Spirit world and thus becomes invisible to mortal eyes, to all the eyes of the ordinary physical World. On the contrary, wearing the Ring he becomes fully visible to all the denizens of the Spirit world: ghosts, spirits, wraiths, ringwraiths etc. He would also still be visible to those "who dwell in both words": Calaquendi Elves (like Glorfindel or Galadriel) and Tom Bombadil.

Barrow wights are in essence SPIRITS:

It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.- LOTR, App A.

It is not important that the spirits animated the dead bodies in the Barrows, still all spirits exist primarily in the Spirit World. They would see Frodo with the Ring clearly.

The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist. Reader's Companion p. 164

The denizens of the Spirit World had no problems seeing each other, by day or by night. The wielder of the One Ring or a ghost of Dunharrow, or a Barrow-Wight would be as easily detectable to a nazgul as another nazgul: they all share the same World.

It is to see things of the Ordinary physical World (and especially to interact with them) that the nazgul and other Spirit World dwellers needed extra-powers and extra-efforts.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

On the contrary, wearing the Ring he becomes fully visible to all the denizens of the Spirit world: ghosts, spirits, wraiths, ringwraiths etc. He would also still be visible to those "who dwell in both words": Calaquendi Elves (like Glorfindel or Galadriel) and Tom Bombadil.

Oddly, Gandalf apparently could not see someone wearing the One. He certainly was from the Blessed Realm.
I would say that his being clothed in a real body may have been a factor, but why should that be an impediment to him and not Bombadil?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Oddly, Gandalf apparently could not see someone wearing the One. He certainly was from the Blessed Realm.

In LOTR there are no cases of Gandalf not seeing the wearer of the One.

In "the Hobbit" the evidence is controversial IIRC: maybe he did, maybe he did not.

Note also that at the time of writing of "the Hobbit", Tolkien has not yet developed the conception of the Spirit /Shadow World versus the World of Light, had no idea about the nature of Bilbo's Ring and had Gandalf as a Man, not a Maia. "The Hobbit" is not a good source of evidence for such things.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

In LOTR there are no cases of Gandalf not seeing the wearer of the One.

'Hullo!' said Bilbo. 'I wondered if you would turn up.' I am glad to find you visible,' replied the wizard, sitting down in a chair, 'I wanted to catch you and have a few final words.'

FOTR A Long-Expected Party
(emphasis added)

If Gandalf was capable of seeing the wearer of the Ring, why would he make such a statement? How would he know, by appearance, whether Bilbo wore the Ring or not?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

In "the Hobbit" the evidence is controversial IIRC: maybe he did, maybe he did not.

Note also that at the time of writing of "the Hobbit", Tolkien has not yet developed the conception of the Spirit /Shadow World versus the World of Light, had no idea about the nature of Bilbo's Ring and had Gandalf as a Man, not a Maia. "The Hobbit" is not a good source of evidence for such things.

Now... this gets into Canoncity (which, I confess, I am drawn to like a moth to a flame this summer), but Tolkien's own opinion preferred very much to consider anything published--which includes The Hobbit--as canon. Now, it is true that Tolkien gave up the attempt (published in Part II of The History of the Hobbit to rewrite The Hobbit completely, so there certainly remain inconsistencies--notably in the chronology and geography between Hobbiton and Rivendell. However, where there is NOT a statement of contradiction between the books, I think it would be in keeping with Tolkien's own principle to consider The Hobbit as an authoritative source for information wherever The Lord of the Rings says nothing.

Of course, this proceeds from the canonical principle (which I espouse) that the author is the arbiter of the canon, not the reader.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

FOTR A Long-Expected Party
(emphasis added)

If Gandalf was capable of seeing the wearer of the Ring, why would he make such a statement? How would he know, by appearance, whether Bilbo wore the Ring or not?

Gandalf likely lived in both Worlds and could see the Seen and the Unseen. Yet, there is no indication he saw both the same way or could mistake the Shadow-Word image for the World of Light one. Bilbo wearing the Ring likely appeared to Gandalf somewhat shadowy, ghost-like.

Look at Frodo at the Ford. Due to his Morgul-wound he is more than half-way into the Shadow-World: he sees the Nazgul clearly, the mortals only as pale shadows (but he still sees them) and Glorfindel as a figure of light:

Checking the horse to a walk, [Frodo] turned and looked back. The Riders seemed to sit upon their great steeds like threatening statues upon a hill, dark and solid, while all the woods and land about them receded as if into a mist.[...] He could see [the Riders] clearly now: they appeared to have cast aside their hoods and black cloaks, and they were robed in white and grey. Swords were naked in their pale hands; helms were on their heads. Their cold eyes glittered, and they called to him with fell voices.[...]
With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Gandalf likely lived in both Worlds and could see the Seen and the Unseen. Yet, there is no indication he saw both the same way or could mistake the Shadow-Word image for the World of Light one. Bilbo wearing the Ring likely appeared to Gandalf somewhat shadowy, ghost-like.

Look at Frodo at the Ford. Due to his Morgul-wound he is more than half-way into the Shadow-World: he sees the Nazgul clearly, the mortals only as pale shadows (but he still sees them) and Glorfindel as a figure of light:

Speculation, but logical enough. It still doesn't make sense though, why Gandalf would make that remark about Bilbo being visible, if he could already see him, shadowy or not.

[Findegil]

For me it makes a lot of sense:
- Bilbo did not know that Gandalf could see him, when he wore the ring. The revelation when Gandalf would have spoken to him while he sought himself invisible would have been a shock. Reading between the lines we can see that Gandalf would have found Bilbo anyway.
- Bilbo not wearing the ring does provide a better chance for him leaving it behind for Frodo. To secure this plan, devised by Gandalf, was the reason for Gandalf looking for Bilbo at that moment.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Findegil

For me it makes a lot of sense:
- Bilbo did not know that Gandalf could see him, when he wore the ring. The revelation when Gandalf would have spoken to him while he sought himself invisible would have been a shock. Reading between the lines we can see that Gandalf would have found Bilbo anyway.

Could Gandalf see Bilbo when Bilbo was wearing the Ring? I don't remember ever thinking he could.

[Findegil]

For Gandalf that is never stated as a clear fact, but in addition to passages refered to above, we have the scene in the Hobbit were Gandalf seems to know from the start that Bilbo did not tell the dwarves the whole story how he had eluded Balin the outlook when he came up at their camp-fire after the Orc-tunnles. And we have the scene in Imladris where Gandalf looks at Frodo after his wounding at Weathertop and sees more then plain looking Sam. And later he explains Frodos own expirience during his near to ghost state at the ford of Bruinnen, in a way that suggest that he does know what he is talking about.

An additional evidence is Tom Bombadil who could see Frodo plainly when he wore the Ring. But it is a weak one since it can be contested if Bombadil was being of the same order as Gandalf the Grey.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Mirkgirl]

About Gandalf seeing through the ring-veil (I know, technically not correct)... I understand why Tolkien kept out of it - it is hard to imagine him not being able to, being tricked by such a toy feature. Otherwise clearly assigning more power to Gandalf against the ring is not neccessarily good - how to explain that the guy doesn't want to give it a try to destroy or even use the thing?

That being said for the narrative choice, he probably could, probably even the higher elves could.

We shouldn't forget that the power Bombadil had over the ring, wasn't just the ability to see someone wearing it, but not to let the ring lead him to the other side, not disappearing from the land of living while wearing the piece.


Now back to the original question. To answer it, we should first know how the Wight the hobbits "saw". All the groping and the eyes lit from beyond probably mean a sight from the shadow world, feeling and seeing just enough from the world of living to take its victims. So probably it was a bad idea to put the ring on in order to become invisible to the barrow creature. He'd more like had gotten a view of the Frodo Bagging in his best shine and brightness.

Which on the other hand, might not have been bad for the initial plan (save your skin leaving the friends behind). The B-W was powerful alluring fresh meat, that is foolish enough to fall asleep in his range, but being affronted by a power like that of the ring, would have probably taken him aback. I guess he would think that he has made a mistake capturing something he is not entitled to and step back.

Of course that would have still meant saving himself in the moment and letting his friends to the will of the BW. I think this episode was one of the most important part in the preparation of Frodo as a Ringbearer.

[Pervinca Took]

Also, concerning the mad notion of escape that occurs to Frodo before he decides to try to save his friends instead: I think this is wholly, or almost wholly, the Ring tempting him.

When Sam bears the Ring for a few hours, we are told "one thing it did not confer, and that was courage." The Ring did not help Sam overcome his fear in Cirith Ungol, and only made him think of lying low, not of rescuing Frodo at all. The Ring did not help a person's native or natural courage; it antagonised and worked against it, so that a person's own courage had to fight to overcome it. "It was almost more than he could screw himself to face," we are told, and the Ring did not help him any more than it helped Frodo in the Barrow.

I slightly wonder if Frodo was haunted by guilt of having even thought of leaving his friends to save himself, because he clearly rambles aloud about it in his sleep in Rivendell (as Gandalf tells him when he wakes up. Also Frodo says he never told his friends what happened in the Barrow - at first because it was too horrible - and afterwards because there were other things to think about (perhaps he was glad not to have to think about it and to have other distractions, however horrible). Gandalf commends him for how he dealt with it: "That was touch and go, probably the most dangerous moment of all. I wish you could have held out at Weathertop." This also implies that it was a direct pressure of temptation from the Ring, no different from what happened at Weathertop.

More dangerous than Weathertop - why? Because Aragorn was not with them? Because Bombadil could be (and was) summoned, but would not get there in time to save Frodo if he put on the Ring? Is this simply because it would certify the exact whereabouts of the Ringbearer for the Nazgul and they would track him down before protection came?

Could the Wights be in some way in league with the Nazgul? I've never been quite sure if there was some connection, or if they themselves, when alive, belonged to the same kindred as the Nazgul - or if they are simply just another of the "many perils in the world," just like Caradhras, not connected with Sauron at all, directly or indirectly.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

More dangerous than Weathertop - why? Because Aragorn was not with them? Because Bombadil could be (and was) summoned, but would not get there in time to save Frodo if he put on the Ring? Is this simply because it would certify the exact whereabouts of the Ringbearer for the Nazgul and they would track him down before protection came?

Could the Wights be in some way in league with the Nazgul? I've never been quite sure if there was some connection, or if they themselves, when alive, belonged to the same kindred as the Nazgul - or if they are simply just another of the "many perils in the world," just like Caradhras, not connected with Sauron at all, directly or indirectly.

We know that the wights were sent to the Downs by the Witch-king during his wars with the Dúnedain of Arnor. I'm still not sure why he did so, though. They probably were informed a party of hobbits might pass that way.

But the Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs; .... he himself visited the Barrow-downs. In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it is said that the Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.

UT The Hunt for the Ring

Though the wights were not in direct league with Sauron, they apparently obeyed the Witch-king. The nature of the wights has been a focus of recurring debate over the years. That they were the spirits of Men, presumably his own subjects (who had sworn fealty to him and undergone some sort of sorcery ?) has been mentioned, or that they were a different order of non-corporeal spirit altogether.
At any rate, I don't believe they and the Nazgûl were creatures of the same order.

As to the question of why Frodo was said to be in more danger in the barrow than on Weathertop, it seems to me Frodo could easily have given in to the spell of the wight as his friends did. If he'd done so, he would have been killed, or worse. The Ring would have remained in the barrow, and the Nazgûl probably would have found it eventually. I wonder if the Ring itself might not have been what saved Frodo from the wight's spell, in an ironic fashion.

As you say, on Weathertop, Frodo had help nearby, and knowledgeable, competent help in the from of Aragron. In the barrow he was all alone, and but for his own courage the quest would have been a failure.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

At any rate, I don't believe they and the Nazgûl were creatures of the same order.

Not in the final version, but I vaguely remember a note from the early drafts (in HoME VI) where Tolkien toyed with the idea that the Black Riders (whose nature he hadn't quite determined at the time) could be something like Barrow-wights on horses. Seems like the idea of some connection between the Nazgûl and the Wights was one of those things that appeared early in the writing process and hung around in his head until the end, even if their precise meaning underwent several mutations.