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05-07-2009, 06:17 PM | #1 |
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Boromir and his search for Rivendell
In the books (though not the extended versions of the films) we are told that Boromir was unsure as to the location of Rivendell and took many months finding it.
Surely however this lack of knowledge would have been unlikely. Rivendell was used as a staging post by Numenorians during the first overthrow of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Isildur's youngest son stayed there at that time so it seems inconceivable that Rivendell was not known of in Gondor. Further, the location of Rivendell was known by the Kings of Arnor and that information would it seems to me have certainly been shared with Gondor, then kept in Minas Tirith so that Boromir could have been given the exact location before he set off. |
05-07-2009, 06:31 PM | #2 |
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That had been a long time before. Plenty of time to forget all sorts of things.
Probably that knowledge of the past, dimly remembered as it might have been, was the only thing that allowed Boromir to find Rivendell at all.
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05-07-2009, 08:55 PM | #3 |
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I had not heard that Rivendell was a staging ground. I do recall that Elendil watched for the arrival of Gilgalad from Weathertop, but that was a long way west.
In any case, we seem ample evidence that Gondor had lost track of most of what happened in the North Kingdom. Boromir did not know of the fate of Elendil's sword, or for that matter that his heirs still lived in that area. They also did not know that Isildur had kept the One Ring, and in fact much of what happened on the slopes of Mount Doom where only Isildur and Elendil on the one hand and Gilgalad and Elrond and Cirdan on the other were present, as Elrond clearly states in the Council of Elrond...
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05-07-2009, 09:31 PM | #4 |
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One thing that should not be forgot is that 3000 years passed between Isildur's day and Boromir's. Trying to find Rivendell on the basis of information that old would be like trying to find Babylon on the basis of a text from Homer's day. Not impossible, perhaps, but definitely difficult.
Of course, Gondor had a continuous history throughout that time--but even if you look at ancient Egypt, going from the foundation of the Old Kingdom, c.-3100 B.C., to the time of Cleopatra, c.-50 B.C., I doubt there was all that much information from the dawn of ancient Egypt that was likely still in circulation under the Ptolemies. Mind you--I'm overlooking the fact that Egypt started out primitive (technologically and communicatively) and advanced as it headed towards the Annis Domini, whereas Gondor started out in all its Númenorean splendour--but I think it's still fair to say that such information could certainly be lost over time--and Boromir seems to have been sent off rather rapidly. I doubt a full search of Gondor's archives, such as Gandalf made to find Isildur's note, would have had time to be made.
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05-08-2009, 04:47 AM | #5 |
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I seem to remember reading that Arnor and Gondor were jointly responsible for the maintenance of the Great Road up till the middle of the Third Age. Surely that implies an interchange of knowledge ?
Also I'm also pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Gondor kept a small garrison of "Soldiers and Engineers" at Tharbad up until about a hundred years before the War of the Ring. Tharbad ain't all that far from Rivendell. |
05-08-2009, 02:28 PM | #6 | |
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Aye, I am unsure if this info would have been available in Gondor Rivendell was in a valley and it was well hidden. Elrond established it as a refuge, and I don't think Sauron ever found it's location and I doubt many in Gondor (by this time) would have known.
Both Faramir and Boro went to Denethor about the dream they had to go to Imladris. Denethor was supposedly the wisest loreman in Gondor and it seemed he was only able to give a rough idea of the location. Add to that Boro lost his horse in Tharbad, and you get a long journey. Edit: Quote:
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05-08-2009, 11:08 PM | #7 | |
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The Egyptians themselves had some very strange notions about their earliest history and (not to get into too much detail here, there is some of this in Herodotus if people are interested in following this up) even their memories and understanding of their recent past could at times be very muddled. And they were one of the people's of antiquity who were most concerned with their history. I believe it is very difficult to truly understand the vastness of the times that Tolkien's world encompassed, I'm honestly not sure Tolkien himself dealt with it (or maybe rather conveyed it) effectively. Boro you work in transportation planning too?
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05-12-2009, 11:08 PM | #8 | |||
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From "The Council of Elrond:
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From 'The Tale of Years,' appendix B, "The Return of the King": Quote:
So, in Minas Tirith, there would have remained VERY little information to start with, and even those who studied such things (not Denethor, surely. He would have prefered accounts of battles and strategies,) would have had very little information to convey to Boromir before he set out. In fact the only information that he seemed to have, comes from Boromir's own quote during the Council of Elrond: Quote:
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05-13-2009, 12:09 AM | #9 |
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I agree.
Despite the fact that Isildur himself had dwelt in Rivendell for a time with his sons while the army of the Last Alliance had been gathered there, it looks like neither of them left notes about its exact location. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Men swore to Elrond not to disclose its location afterwards. Secrecy was the main defense of the place, after all. |
05-13-2009, 05:17 AM | #10 | |
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Originally posted by Gordis:
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05-13-2009, 12:07 PM | #11 |
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Rond, Elrond
If I remember Boromir turned up apparently 'out of the blue' at the right time at Rivendell. Probably an argument for Eru's noodly appendage playing a part. .
However I've wondered if Elrond generally sent some sort of 'confuslement field' type vibe (magic whatever) to keep Rivendell hidden from undesirables, but could switch it to an 'attraction field' when there was a visitor who was welcome. Speculation I know but Saruman ceratinly sent some 'force' that hindered the three hunters and someone commented on how difficult Rivendell was to find (perhaps Gandalf in The Hobbit?)
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05-13-2009, 12:28 PM | #12 |
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We have a splendid example of that in Melian and Doriath.
At least as far as deterrance...and she couldn't keep Beren out, but it seems similar.
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05-13-2009, 03:22 PM | #13 |
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I wonder, what road did Boromir take after he lost his horse at Tharbad crossing?
Did he come up Mitheithel to the Last Bridge? Or did he pass through Bree? In either case he seems to have closely followed the Ring-party for the last leg of the journey Last Bridge-Rivendell. He was lucky not to meet any nazgul... |
05-13-2009, 03:22 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
This is Aragorn speaking on Weathertop; Aragorn the Ranger who knew the country well and lived in Rivendell itself for much of his childhood. And what happens thereafter? After the confrontation at Weathertop, Aragorn leads the hobbits through a backcountry route, avoiding the road and, if not actually getting lost, goes astray ('We have come too far to the north... and we must find some way to turn back southwards again."). Clearly, Rivendell is hidden and difficult to find. There is an implication of some form of concealment through the power of Elrond perhaps in a manner similar to, if not as obvious and overt as, Melian's Girdle. Those who do not know where Imladris lies find it difficult to find it, and even those who have been there may encounter trouble. To the extent that Elendil or any of his northern army visited Rivendell, many, including Elendil himself, died in the Siege of Mordor and those that survived perished in the disaster at Gladden Fields. It cannot be said that after the War any certain information regarding Rivendell's location would have been communicated to Gondor. As others have mentioned above, the fact that the road north was maintained long before the events in LoTR also does not guarantee that any such information survived the passage of time and it may simply be that no certain data on Rivendell's location ever existed in Gondor. Even it were roughly shown on a map, the difficulties in finding Rivendell that Aragorn refers to still would have delayed Boromir. Aragorn's discussion of how the road to Rivendell is "strange" is reminiscent of Tolkien's descriptions of the Smith's journeys in Faerie in The Smith of Wootten Major. There the Smith's journeys seem longer or shorter even when he is travelling to the same place (assuming he can find it). When a mortal Man journeys to the Elves, particularly in the later Ages, perhaps he is going to a realm different from the mortal world in ways subtle and less subtle. This may be, in part, why Rivendell was hard to find.
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05-13-2009, 04:34 PM | #15 |
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05-13-2009, 05:07 PM | #16 |
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In the days of the last Kings of Gondor before Aragorn, namely Earnil and Earnur, Gondor sent forces to Cirdan's Havens to fight the Witch King. During that war, Glorfindel actually told the Gondor heir that the Witch King wouldn't be killed by "the hand of man".
Surely during that exchange or in subsequent conversations the location of Rivendell, Glorfindel's home at that time, would have been mentioned ? And these events were only a thousand years or so before the War of the Ring. And even during Ecthelion's final years as Steward of Gondor Thorongil might have mentioned Elrond and Rivendell to him ? Gondor's ignorance of Rivendell's location doesn't add up. |
05-13-2009, 05:14 PM | #17 |
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"Only?" Let's see, only about a thousand years ago there was this king named Arthur, and Camelot is where?
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05-13-2009, 06:13 PM | #18 | ||||
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Let us not go to Rivendell, for 'tis a silly place!
Ah, found the quote I was looking for-
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Followed by much in the way of tra-la-la-lallying. Note the 'secret valley' - Is it secret? Is it safe?
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05-13-2009, 08:31 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
Denethor of course did know of Elrond and Rivendell, just not where they were exactly...
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05-15-2009, 10:48 PM | #20 | ||
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Besides Elrond's power, secrecy was Rivendell's only weapon. It wasn't a fortress, it was in more of a mansion where members of Elrond's house and some other guests lived - it was a hidden refuge in a secret valley. I don't know what you expect anyone in Gondor to know about it's location, and certainly from people (Denethor, Faramir, Boromir...etc) who have never been there, and they have been out of contact with for many hundreds of years. I am fascinated by the ideas about a possible "Elrond's girdle," and Boromir finding the place due to intervention from Eru, I never thought about that...just knew it was a really hard place for the man to find.
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05-15-2009, 10:58 PM | #21 |
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I've seen some people try to explain the improbability of Boromir's finding Rivendell due to his being picked up by maybe a stray Ranger (who gave him directions) or even the sons of Elrond who led him those last tricky miles. Quite reasonable, especially when you consider how E&E managed to keep Aragorn from Frodo's recovery feast because they had Very Important News to Give Him; but that's also the realm of fan fiction.
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05-15-2009, 11:10 PM | #22 | |
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Quote:
Although I am also considering the wording in the Council of Elrond...if I recall correctly, Elrond says something like "Boromir came to us in the early morning hours" or something similar (I don't have a copy of the books available, they have went through so much wear and tear the binding is gone and the pages are probably dissolving and I have been terrible about getting a new one ). But just from the memory saying "Boromir came to us" sounds like he just stumbled upon the place, or arrived alone. Of course that doesn't mean a helpful ranger, or the E&E boys didn't give some better directions as he was aimlessly wandering the woods.
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05-16-2009, 03:34 AM | #23 |
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Still think it doesn't add up.
If you look at the map, the Fords of Isen are roughly the same distance from Rivendell as they are from Minas Tirith - and nearer Rivendell than say Belfalas. Surely there were enough travellers proceeding across Middle Earth to foster communication and some knowledge of people and places. For example, Celeborn knew that the bridges at Osgiliath were cast down and the landings held by the Enemy. Eomer knew about the false rumour that Rohan paid a tribute of horses to Mordor. Drarves travelled regularly between the Blue Mountains and the Lonely Mountain (passing close to Rivendell) and must have spoken to Beornings, Woodmen in Mirkwood and others who in turn would have had some contact with Rohan and in turn Gondor. But the clinching argument for me is this - if Denethor wanted to advise Boromir on the location of Rivendell, why didn't he just use the Palantir ? |
05-16-2009, 05:26 AM | #24 | |
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Quote:
1. Maybe Denethor didn't start using the Palaintir until after Boromir left. In fact his long abscence, and possibly knowedge of his death (via Faramirs vision and the split horn) may have been what drove Denethor to start using the Palantir in the first place. 2. Rivendell may have been out of the Palantir's range. I seem to recall something in the Esaay of the Palantiri in the UT that said that the distance a palantir could see was related to its size, maybe the anor stone was too small to have that range. A clue for this may be in the fact that the two largest stones (Osgiliath's and Amon Sul's) were placed in positions where they could have been used as relay stones (one in Gondor one in Arnor) for messages coming in from the other stones. 3. Whatever magic Elrond had that made Rivendell so hard to find may also have prevented it's being scryed by a Palantir. If it didn't then sauron himself could and would have immediately known EXACTLY where Rivendell and Lothlorien were. 4. Comments made by Gandalf in his discussion of the Palantiri make me believe that a great will is needed to use the stone for DIRECTED viewing, without it the stone simply shows random images. Maybe Denethor didn't have that kind of will. In this presumption his later seeing of the Black ships becomes a fluke (or mor likey Sauron using his will in his Palantir to twist Denethor by showing him such images as will maximize his despair and convince him to give up. Those are the best reasons I can come up with. |
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05-16-2009, 08:28 AM | #25 | |||||
Laconic Loreman
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MoS:
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Communication between Gondor and Rivendell and/or Lorien doesn't. First off, Rohan and Gondor have this major rumor that Lorien is run by a witch and should be avoided (even Faramir believes it.) Secondly, Boromir talks about Gondor's "loneliness" and seemingly the only remaining bastion against Sauron, besides their friends in Rohan. Boromir was being pretty arrogant, because of course other people were opposed to Sauron, but the fact that he states Gondor's only friends now are Rohan, to me suggests, Rohan is the only place Gondor would be in contact with. You have to remember Denethor was prideful and distrusted anyone who did not fight for Gondor, he was in the mindset it is Gondor vs. Mordor, and isolated Gondor from the rest of its allies, including Rohan (see the Appendix: Stewards). It's already been established that the location of Rivendell is not a common known thing, or else it would not have been a very effective refuge. I mean Gondor (nor the people of Middle-earth) did not have GPS to plot out their route. If Boromir even looked at a map before he left to get a general sense of direction, "a map" (if Rivendell was even on it!) would not be able to show him recognizable landmarks through woods, or show him how to find a hidden location, in a secret valley, in an area that was completely unfamiliar. Boromir was not a ranger, and the resident ranger even had trouble finding the way to Rivendell. Alfirin Quote:
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However, you still have to have a significant amount of willpower to contend with Sauron, even though Sauron wasn't a rightful owner. Sauron nearly broke Aragorn, and Aragorn had the authority, plus he was much farther (the distance plays a factor as well, in UT, had Aragorn been closer to Sauron - as Denethor was - he probably would have been bested). Afterall, Sauron is a Maia, and for a mortal to challenge his will, well bad things are going to happen. It is clear that Sauron was controlling the images Denethor was viewing, when he began doing this, I do not know, but I would imagine it wouldn't be long after he realized Denethor was peeking around. He would of course want to do anything to weaken his strongest enemy, and realizing that the Steward is poking around with the Palantir would be a good opportunity. Sauron could not make the palantir lie and show false images, but he could make it misleading and control what Denethor was seeing - he was only showing Denethor the massive amount of forces Sauron had, and the Corsairs a sailing in, leading Denethor to lose all hope. Once Denethor lost hope, he thought his only chance was to challenge Sauron through the palantir, the "Lord of Minas Tirith vs. the Lord of Barad-dur" (see Appendix: The Stewards), and that is when he lost his mind.
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05-16-2009, 08:58 AM | #26 | ||||
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Quote:
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However, in order to look on Rivendell, wouldn't Denethor have to possess already knowledge of its location or appearance? If not, why couldn't Sauron have used the Ithil Stone to find the Shire? Quote:
edit- x'd with Boro
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05-16-2009, 10:00 AM | #27 | |
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Saruman also devoted himself to lore and succumbed to the rapacious effects of the knowledge he gained. Deep and extended study drove Denethor farther and farther into a sense of empowerment, with disasterous consequences. There's a difference between great knowledge and wisdom in Middle-earth, and Rivendell was a place of wisdom. So that understanding terrain and geography and place is less a question of knowing the map and more a matter of having the right mind--that is, one which can approach a more elvish way of thinking. I wasn't being flippant when I linked to Shangri La and Lost Horizons.
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05-16-2009, 11:59 AM | #28 | |
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05-16-2009, 05:18 PM | #29 | |
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Faramir had the dream many times, but Boromir himself also had the prophetic dream. In our haste to castigate him for his pride and arrogance--which I admit I have oft been ready to do--it is well to remember that he too is capable of dreaming dreams that make Middle earth a magical place. Boromir heard the voice fortelling the forging of the sword and the finding of the Ring, which is not a particularly mannish night time activity. If he was worthy of receiving the dream, he was worthy of finding the hidden realm.
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05-17-2009, 01:02 PM | #30 |
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The problem with the Palantir is that you have to know where to look
Try this: my house is in the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA. Now, find it in Google Earth.
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05-17-2009, 01:16 PM | #31 |
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My gosh, you live in hovel
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05-17-2009, 05:17 PM | #32 |
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05-23-2009, 05:29 PM | #33 | |
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I don't think the Last Homely House or even the valley in which it lay were in sight of the Ford of Bruinen.
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If Rivendell had been that near and in sight, surely Frodo would have made an effort to ride there on the horse, and why would not Elrond or Gandalf have sent more Elves to assist, or even come themselves?
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05-24-2009, 08:42 AM | #34 |
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We don't know exactly what the process of commanding the ford or adding white horses to the flood entailed so it may have been they were required to be elsewhere...but I think you are right that Rivendell wasn't close to the ford.
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05-25-2009, 01:02 PM | #35 |
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I would point out that when Boromir left MT, months before, there weren't any Black Riders peering over the Ford!
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03-31-2014, 07:57 AM | #36 |
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Come to think of it, once Boromir lost his horse at Tharbad, if he'd followed the road (the Greenway) he'd have arrived at either Sarn Ford or Bree, and from either of those places got a fresh horse and proceeded to Rivendell. Surely he would have bumped into Rangers or travelling Elves to direct him?
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03-31-2014, 08:08 AM | #37 | |
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Quote:
Also, I think he only knew that Rivendell was near the western side of the Misty Mountains, north of Moria. Since it was obviously in existence before the founding of Gondor and Arnor, that much at least was probably still known to some there. With that knowledge, there would have been no reason for him to have continued up the old road to Bree, even if he had known about the little town. And on his road in the wilderness between Tharbad and Rivendell, there was very little chance of meeting Elves or Dúnedain.
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03-31-2014, 09:12 AM | #38 | |
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Quote:
According to Tolkien's notes it was "28 miles (by road 30)" from the Ford to Rivendell.
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03-31-2014, 01:58 PM | #39 |
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30 miles! I didn't realise it was that far. I suppose Glorfindel must have galloped the rest of the way with Frodo on Asfaloth, then ... a few more hours and he would have been beyond their aid, Gandalf said.
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04-01-2014, 08:35 AM | #40 |
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You don't gallop a horse for thirty miles- at least not a real-world one. Just the mile-long sprint to the ford would have blown him!
G in fact tells Frodo that "Elrond's folk met [Aragorn and Glorfindel], carrying you slowly towards Rivendell."
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