Hurt & Heal V: Ainur (non-Valar) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the phantom · 04-26-2009, 12:41 PM

RULES

From 20 to 7 - each player has 3 votes: 2 hurts and 1 heal. Double hurts are allowed.

From 6 to 4 - each player has 3 votes: 2 hurts and 1 heal. Double hurts ar not allowed: a player has to hurt 2 different characters and heal one, or he may use only 1 hurt and 1 heal.

When but 3 characters are left each player has either a hurt or a heal.

Wait for at least four posters to vote prior to you voting again.

Master Mormegil asked that I go ahead and start the thread, so here it is. Let's start the nominations.

I submit-

Melian
Eonwe
Tilion
Gothmog

Tuor in Gondolin · 04-26-2009, 01:26 PM

How about Ungoliant (if she's a maia), Durin's Bane, and Osse ?

Thinlómien · 04-26-2009, 01:38 PM

Arien and Uinen

Lalaith · 04-26-2009, 04:44 PM

Second Tilion and Arien (Luminos!)
nominate Alatar and Aiwendil (Downer Istari power!)

Thinlómien · 04-26-2009, 05:18 PM

Second Melian, Durin's bane, Ossë, Alatar and Aiwendil,
nominate Pallando (and Tom and Goldberry if they count

).

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-26-2009, 05:44 PM

Second Pallando and Uinen...

Tuor in Gondolin · 04-26-2009, 05:50 PM

And second Eonwe. How can you not have the
Herald of Manwe in such a contest?

Gordis · 04-27-2009, 12:55 AM

Annatar anyone?

the phantom · 04-27-2009, 10:35 AM

I submit Curunir, and I second Uinen and Sauron.

Approved-

Aiwendil
Alatar
Arien
Durin's Bane
Eonwe
Melian
Osse
Pallando
Sauron
Tilion
Uinen

Submitted, but not seconded yet-

Curunir
Gothmog
Ungolient

EDIT: updated, oops

Thinlómien · 04-27-2009, 11:05 AM

Phantom, you missed Legate's post where he seconded Pallando (and Uinen).

Aganzir · 04-27-2009, 12:26 PM

Ooh Curunír seconded.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-27-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ooh Curunír seconded.

I was thinking whether to second him or not, because once he's there, a) he's going to be ridiculously much supported (by me at least), b) if people hurt him, I am going to be sad

But whatever

Thinlómien · 04-27-2009, 12:43 PM

If we have the hyper-favourites Saruman and Sauron, I think we should have Gandalf too, just to be fair.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-27-2009, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If we have the hyper-favourites Saruman and Sauron, I think we should have Gandalf too, just to be fair.

That's what I thought too: especially Sauron and Gandalf are just everywhere and everybody is voting them. Shouldn't we then just keep them out of that? Just so to prevent the all too obvious guys from winning again, which certainly would be quite boring.

Aganzir · 04-27-2009, 01:08 PM

Don't worry Legate - we have Nog.

Lalaith · 04-27-2009, 02:51 PM

I'm sorry people, I'm not convinced AT all that Ungoliant is of the Maiar. I also think we should keep Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron out of this.

Thinlómien · 04-27-2009, 02:53 PM

I actually agree with Lalaith here. Those three have been in enough competitions before...

the phantom · 04-27-2009, 03:04 PM

If either Gandalf or Sauron had actually won a contest, I would say yes, keep them out.

But seeing as we're eventually going to have a Tournament of Champions (the people on the list will be previous winners) it seems a shame not to include characters and deny them the chance to win.

Gandalf and Sauron won't be able to be in the Elf, Man, Dwarf, Evil Minion, Female, weapons/armor, or Valar contest, so I don't think it'd be fair to keep them out of this contest that they actually qualify for.

And Ungolient is fine because this isn't a Maia contest. It's open to all the Ainur who were not among the Valar.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-27-2009, 03:25 PM

Well, phanston, I guess Lalaith's point might as well have been that Ungoliant is not Ainu at all. But I am fine with considering her as an Ainu, or even as a Maia.

But Gandalf and Sauron are too much, in my opinion. Curumo is still yet okay, he is a bit on the edge, but I think there might be some considerably strong clique against him. But these two guys... no way. Haven't they been in the first one, or something like that?

Lalaith · 04-27-2009, 03:27 PM

That's the thing. I don't think she's Ainu, she's something Other. The darkness and chaos and all that.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-27-2009, 03:29 PM

See? I said that

Anyway, one thing to add to this Gandalf and Sauron - they could be in the contest "the biggest heroes" or something. Or "the most typical heroes". Or "the biggest bosses". Along with Morgoth and a some others (we might classify. Fëanor or Galadriel come to my mind).

Gordis · 04-27-2009, 11:20 PM

I think "the biggest bosses" is a good idea for the future game - so we can indeed leave Gandy, Sau and Saruman out of this one.

Then such nice Maiar as Eonwe or Uinen would get a fair chance.

the phantom · 04-28-2009, 02:03 PM

Since we'll probably have a "monsters" and/or "other" H & H game in the future, it might make sense to leave Ungolient off this one. Though she could easily be explained as an Ainu in the Silmarillion and in other writings, in some earlier stuff she was something else and even later she is not defined specifically.

So, yeah, we can leave her off if you don't want to see her now.

As far as purposefully excluding "popular" characters, thus far we certainly haven't been doing that to extreme measures. In the previous rounds we've included Turin, Hurin, The Witch King, Sauron, Saruman, Luthien, Ulmo, Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Aragorn, Fingolfin, Eowyn, Gimli, Frodo, Sam, Feanor, and Glorfindel... and guess what? None of them won.

Now, I seem to recall Melkor being spoken against in one of the previous rounds because of his status, but then surely we'll allow him to compete when it's his time, right? (The Valar round most likely.)

Then what about a Maia this round? This is their time, isn't it? They won't be in the next eight or so games for sure. So do we deny popular characters the chance to win their division just because we think they're too likely to win, despite the fact that half of us would no doubt try and keep them from winning anyway?

Meh, you people decide. If we can fill the list up to 20 without them and you want to see them left off, I'm cool with it.

Approved-

Aiwendil
Alatar
Arien
Durin's Bane
Eonwe
Melian
Osse
Pallando
Tilion
Uinen

Being discussed-

Curunir
Gothmog
Olorin
Sauron
Ungolient

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-28-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the phantom

Then what about a Maia this round? This is their time, isn't it? They won't be in the next eight or so games for sure. So do we deny popular characters the chance to win their division just because we think they're too likely to win, despite the fact that half of us would no doubt try and keep them from winning anyway?

Well, but that is actually also half of the point. That's why I think those guys should have their own cathegory. Because basically, against the "normal" characters, in fact everybody would wish them to win - so that's one reason why not allow them - and at the same time, some people would not wish them to win just based on principle: and that basically puts them in a completely different game, so to say. So I am against introducing them here.

Thinlómien · 04-28-2009, 02:43 PM

I second Gothmog. He's surely a maia, and even though he's not particularily interesting, we may very well have him.

Hmm... wasn't there some speculation about Thorondor actually being a maia too? he'd be a nice addition in that case. And what about Ilmarë, Varda's handmaid?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-28-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hmm... wasn't there some speculation about Thorondor actually being a maia too? he'd be a nice addition in that case. And what about Ilmarë, Varda's handmaid?

Ha, interesting - Ilmarë, one would completely forget about her... and Thorondor could be, though perhaps we should save him for some "animal" competition or something, if there will be one?

Eönwë · 04-28-2009, 05:03 PM

I quite like the look of this list...

I second Gothmog.

Also, I don't think we should include Ungoliant, because I don't think that she's an Ainu. And if we include her, then we'll have to include Tom Bombadil and possibly Goldberry (I, for one, would definately push for them), and that would just make things more complicated.

I think we should just go with "fully-certified" Maiar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Ha, interesting - Ilmarë, one would completely forget about her... and Thorondor could be, though perhaps we should save him for some "animal" competition or something, if there will be one?

We could do that. We could make one called "sentient animals" or such...

Tuor in Gondolin · 04-28-2009, 05:19 PM

If Thorondor is considered a maia then I'll
second him. But his case (and the great eagles in
general) is one of the most ambiguous (which is
saying something for Tollers

) of classifications
in Ea. I lean slightly toward his being a maia, if
Melian could have a child, why not Thorondor? But...

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-28-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

If Thorondor is considered a maia then I'll
second him. But his case (and the great eagles in
general) is one of the most ambiguous (which is
saying something for Tollers

) of classifications
in Ea. I lean slightly toward his being a maia, if
Melian could have a child, why not Thorondor? But...

Hmm. But I am not really sure. I guess it would be better to keep them out. Thorondor is probably rather "a spirit from elsewhere", but from where and what, nobody knows. One would say, it is something like a Maia, if not really a Maia, but still - it's a bit like with the Ents - and they certainly were not Ainur, yet were something else than most of the animals or Elves, Men, Dwarves etc. I guess we should leave Thorondor out: otherwise we are partially letting it get close to inviting Dragons into the bunch. So let us just leave them for another time.

Same goes for Ungoliant&co. - I'd side with Eönwë here.

the phantom · 04-29-2009, 08:08 PM

We still need a few more.

Aiwendil
Alatar
Arien
Durin's Bane
Eonwe
Gothmog
Ilmare
Melian
Osse
Pallando
Tilion
Uinen

Tuor in Gondolin · 04-29-2009, 08:23 PM

Salmar

Quote:

Salmar made the Ulumúri for his lord Ulmo, the great conches which produce the music of the sea.

And how about the (somewhat less than) dynamic duo
The Blue Wizards ?

Mnemosyne · 04-29-2009, 09:24 PM

Salmar's seconded.

Gordis · 04-29-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And how about the (somewhat less than) dynamic duo
The Blue Wizards ?

They are there already :Alatar and Pallando

Maybe we should take them as one item, though?

mormegil · 04-29-2009, 11:11 PM

It may be that we just need to throw any and all that fit in this narrow category

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-30-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Salmar's seconded.

Ah, yes! Once again somebody almost forgotten, yet so important... great, I like this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

They are there already :Alatar and Pallando

Maybe we should take them as one item, though?

Certainly not! That's nonsense. I want to have them there separately!

Gordis · 04-30-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Ah, yes!
Certainly not! That's nonsense. I want to have them there separately!

Oh yea! Charming Pallando is so much nicer, wiser and braver than this old geezer Alatar

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-30-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

Oh yea! Charming Pallando is so much nicer, wiser and braver than this old geezer Alatar

But Alatar is definitely a hunter, which is cool, especially when he is an old geezer

Eönwë · 04-30-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis (bolding mine)

Oh yea! Charming Pallando is so much nicer, wiser and braver than this old geezer Alatar

I always thought it was the other way around

edit: I somehow managed to get an x-post there.

Gordis · 04-30-2009, 02:48 PM

How about stop chattering and start voting?

the phantom · 04-30-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

How about stop chattering and start voting?

It would be great to start voting, but we can't do that until we have a full list. We only have 13 at this point. How are we going to fill the list, people?

Aiwendil
Alatar
Arien
Durin's Bane
Eonwe
Gothmog
Ilmare
Melian
Osse
Pallando
Salmar
Tilion
Uinen

04-26-2009, 12:41 PM	#1
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Hurt & Heal V: Ainur (non-Valar) RULES From 20 to 7 - each player has 3 votes: 2 hurts and 1 heal. Double hurts are allowed. From 6 to 4 - each player has 3 votes: 2 hurts and 1 heal. Double hurts ar not allowed: a player has to hurt 2 different characters and heal one, or he may use only 1 hurt and 1 heal. When but 3 characters are left each player has either a hurt or a heal. Wait for at least four posters to vote prior to you voting again. Master Mormegil asked that I go ahead and start the thread, so here it is. Let's start the nominations. I submit- Melian Eonwe Tilion Gothmog __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

04-26-2009, 01:26 PM	#2
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	How about Ungoliant (if she's a maia), Durin's Bane, and Osse ? __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 04-26-2009 at 01:30 PM.

04-26-2009, 01:38 PM	#3
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Girl power Arien and Uinen __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-26-2009, 04:44 PM	#4
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Second Tilion and Arien (Luminos!) nominate Alatar and Aiwendil (Downer Istari power!) __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

04-26-2009, 05:18 PM	#5
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Second Melian, Durin's bane, Ossë, Alatar and Aiwendil, nominate Pallando (and Tom and Goldberry if they count ). __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-26-2009, 05:44 PM	#6
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Second Pallando and Uinen... __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

04-26-2009, 05:50 PM	#7
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	And second Eonwe. How can you not have the Herald of Manwe in such a contest? __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

04-27-2009, 12:55 AM	#8
Gordis Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 431	Annatar anyone?

04-27-2009, 10:35 AM	#9
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	I submit Curunir, and I second Uinen and Sauron. Approved- Aiwendil Alatar Arien Durin's Bane Eonwe Melian Osse Pallando Sauron Tilion Uinen Submitted, but not seconded yet- Curunir Gothmog Ungolient EDIT: updated, oops __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important. Last edited by the phantom; 04-27-2009 at 11:17 AM.

04-27-2009, 11:05 AM	#10
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Phantom, you missed Legate's post where he seconded Pallando (and Uinen). __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-27-2009, 12:26 PM	#11
Aganzir Woman of Secret Shadow Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells Posts: 4,511	Ooh Curunír seconded. __________________ He bit me, and I was not gentle.

04-27-2009, 12:43 PM	#13
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	If we have the hyper-favourites Saruman and Sauron, I think we should have Gandalf too, just to be fair. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-27-2009, 01:08 PM	#15
Aganzir Woman of Secret Shadow Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells Posts: 4,511	Don't worry Legate - we have Nog. __________________ He bit me, and I was not gentle.

04-27-2009, 02:51 PM	#16
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	I'm sorry people, I'm not convinced AT all that Ungoliant is of the Maiar. I also think we should keep Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron out of this. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

04-27-2009, 02:53 PM	#17
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I actually agree with Lalaith here. Those three have been in enough competitions before... __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-27-2009, 03:04 PM	#18
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	If either Gandalf or Sauron had actually won a contest, I would say yes, keep them out. But seeing as we're eventually going to have a Tournament of Champions (the people on the list will be previous winners) it seems a shame not to include characters and deny them the chance to win. Gandalf and Sauron won't be able to be in the Elf, Man, Dwarf, Evil Minion, Female, weapons/armor, or Valar contest, so I don't think it'd be fair to keep them out of this contest that they actually qualify for. And Ungolient is fine because this isn't a Maia contest. It's open to all the Ainur who were not among the Valar. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

04-27-2009, 03:25 PM	#19
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Well, phanston, I guess Lalaith's point might as well have been that Ungoliant is not Ainu at all. But I am fine with considering her as an Ainu, or even as a Maia. But Gandalf and Sauron are too much, in my opinion. Curumo is still yet okay, he is a bit on the edge, but I think there might be some considerably strong clique against him. But these two guys... no way. Haven't they been in the first one, or something like that? __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

04-27-2009, 03:27 PM	#20
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	That's the thing. I don't think she's Ainu, she's something Other. The darkness and chaos and all that. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

04-27-2009, 03:29 PM	#21
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	See? I said that Anyway, one thing to add to this Gandalf and Sauron - they could be in the contest "the biggest heroes" or something. Or "the most typical heroes". Or "the biggest bosses". Along with Morgoth and a some others (we might classify. Fëanor or Galadriel come to my mind). __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

04-27-2009, 11:20 PM	#22
Gordis Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 431	I think "the biggest bosses" is a good idea for the future game - so we can indeed leave Gandy, Sau and Saruman out of this one. Then such nice Maiar as Eonwe or Uinen would get a fair chance.

04-28-2009, 02:03 PM	#23
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Since we'll probably have a "monsters" and/or "other" H & H game in the future, it might make sense to leave Ungolient off this one. Though she could easily be explained as an Ainu in the Silmarillion and in other writings, in some earlier stuff she was something else and even later she is not defined specifically. So, yeah, we can leave her off if you don't want to see her now. As far as purposefully excluding "popular" characters, thus far we certainly haven't been doing that to extreme measures. In the previous rounds we've included Turin, Hurin, The Witch King, Sauron, Saruman, Luthien, Ulmo, Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Aragorn, Fingolfin, Eowyn, Gimli, Frodo, Sam, Feanor, and Glorfindel... and guess what? None of them won. Now, I seem to recall Melkor being spoken against in one of the previous rounds because of his status, but then surely we'll allow him to compete when it's his time, right? (The Valar round most likely.) Then what about a Maia this round? This is their time, isn't it? They won't be in the next eight or so games for sure. So do we deny popular characters the chance to win their division just because we think they're too likely to win, despite the fact that half of us would no doubt try and keep them from winning anyway? Meh, you people decide. If we can fill the list up to 20 without them and you want to see them left off, I'm cool with it. Approved- Aiwendil Alatar Arien Durin's Bane Eonwe Melian Osse Pallando Tilion Uinen Being discussed- Curunir Gothmog Olorin Sauron Ungolient __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

04-28-2009, 02:43 PM	#25
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I second Gothmog. He's surely a maia, and even though he's not particularily interesting, we may very well have him. Hmm... wasn't there some speculation about Thorondor actually being a maia too? he'd be a nice addition in that case. And what about Ilmarë, Varda's handmaid? __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-28-2009, 05:19 PM	#28
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	If Thorondor is considered a maia then I'll second him. But his case (and the great eagles in general) is one of the most ambiguous (which is saying something for Tollers ) of classifications in Ea. I lean slightly toward his being a maia, if Melian could have a child, why not Thorondor? But... __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

04-29-2009, 08:08 PM	#30
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	We still need a few more. Aiwendil Alatar Arien Durin's Bane Eonwe Gothmog Ilmare Melian Osse Pallando Tilion Uinen __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

04-29-2009, 09:24 PM	#32
Mnemosyne Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Between the past and the future Posts: 1,159	Salmar's seconded. __________________ Got corsets?

04-29-2009, 11:11 PM	#34
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,648	It may be that we just need to throw any and all that fit in this narrow category __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

04-30-2009, 02:48 PM	#39
Gordis Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 431	How about stop chattering and start voting?