Gandalf, blood of hobbits on his hands?

[Elmo]

Did Gandalf know who Sharkie was?

If so, I reckon Gandalf shouldn't have so easily washed his hands of the hobbits before the Battle of Bywater. He could easily say it wasn't his problem anymore but Saruman was a maia and belonged to the same order as Gandalf. I say it was his problem to fix. He could have prevented the deaths of all the hobbits in that battle.

[Morthoron]

I believe Gandalf had an inkling there was trouble in the Shire (he had an uncanny presience, after all); however, I don't believe he was aware that Saruman was Sharky (or knew of the Sharky nick at all, for that matter). Nevertheless, 'The Scouring of the Shire' is one of the most crucial parts of LotR, because Tolkien basically wrote the quintessential 'coming of age' tale, and it was absolutely necessary for the Hobbits (Frodo, Samwise, Merry and Pippin) to solve the Hobbits' (as in the whole Shire's) problems by themselves, based on the experience they gained and travails they had to overcome throughout the book.

In essence, the Fellowship of the Ring (that is, the actual quest for the destruction of the Ring) was the training ground for these four Hobbits to gain the leadership skills necessary to overcome the danger they encountered upon their return to the Shire. Gandalf, had he even known about Saruman's presence, would most likely not have interferred with the Hobbits roles in leading the insurrection, as it is obvious he had an infinite amount of confidence in his Hobbit comrades and respect for their abilities.

It is also evident that Tolkien wrote 'The Scouring of the Shire' as an integral part of the story, with a particular emphasis on the growth of the Hobbit protagonists. They no longer needed the help of wizards or Dunedain Rangers to save their own, and this is one of the primary knocks I have against the Peter Jackson films. He missed the point entirely, it seems; or, rather, chose to glorify other lesser aspects of the story not in keeping with the author's intent.

[The Might]

This is something I personally also have had trouble with for a long time.

Of course coming of age, blah blah, but the point remains - Hobbits died. Now, Gandalf here is being extremely harsh by acting solely by the old ideal of the end justifies the means. And this is in my opinion not only a horrible ideal to live by, but also something totally unfitting for an emissary of the Valar. Of course the Hobbits should learn their lesson, they should become independent, but at that cost?

Now, one could argue that in M-e death was not that bad actually. It was the gift of death that Eru was making to Men, but still, did these Hobbits not have the right to enjoy their lives to the fullest before leaving Arda for some unknown place that only Eru knew of? And who was Gandalf to deny them that, for he, as already mentioned in the other posts, felt that something was wrong within the Shire.

The only way that Gandalf can come clean out of this whole event is to speculate that what he expected was a lot less than a ruffian takeover under Saruman and a bloody battle or that he expected the Hobbits to manage to solve the situation peacefully (why, I don't know after all they saw in the War of the Ring) and that it was the four companions who actually failed in that respect.

No, but in the end, I share the view that Gandalf knew that something was wrong in the Shire, and that he, knowing full well what the risks involved were, let the Hobbits handle things themselves. A terrible deed nonetheless, unless you come from the planet Qo'nos.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Elmo

He could easily say it wasn't his problem anymore but Saruman was a maia and belonged to the same order as Gandalf. I say it was his problem to fix. He could have prevented the deaths of all the hobbits in that battle.

Gandalf's purpose was not to right all the evils of the world, but to do what he could to bring about Sauron's defeat. He was sent with that sole task before him, and once that was accomplished his time of action in ME was over.
Being of the same order as Saruman didn't mean the responsibility for vanquishing him lay with Gandalf. Gandalf's errand was finished: he knew the Hobbits were capable of dealing with the situation in the Shire themselves, but I don't believe he either would have or could have intervened even if the Hobbits had appeared to be failing.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

Of course the Hobbits should learn their lesson, they should become independent, but at that cost?

I see two themes to this conversation. The first one is in the above quote, and I think some perspective is needed that one. Sure, some hobbits died during Sharkey's occupation and the Scouring, but the Shire suffered nothing compared to Gondor and Rohan.

Independence is a precious thing and objectively worth the lives of a few hobbits.

By comparison, the United States gained independence at the cost of 6188 wounded and 4435 dead. Were there grieving mothers? Certainly, but it was worth the price.

The second theme is that Gandalf should have done something to stop Sharkey/Saruman. That wasn't his mission, ergo it didn't have the blessing of the Valar. They sent Gandalf... twice... to oppose Sauron, and the Ring was destroyed by the time the hobbits returned to the Shire.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I want to think about this a little more, but there is another aspect to this situation that I think should be considered: the involvement of Hobbits in starting the trouble. If not for Hobbits like Lotho and Ted Sandyman, would the ruffians have gotten a foothold in Shire doings to begin with? Even before Saruman became directly involved -- indeed, even before Frodo left Bag End with the Ring -- there were Hobbits already interested in "improving" the Shire for their own benefit, and profit. Gandalf was not responsible for their attitudes and actions; even if he felt strongly about these things, all he could really do within the parameters of his mission would be to advise them against such courses of action. Saruman alone was not responsible for the ruin of the Shire; indeed, without the all too willing cooperation of corruptible Men and Hobbits, I doubt he would have succeeded quite so well.

Must think more. After I finish my Christmas dessert.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by The Might

Of course coming of age, blah blah, but the point remains - Hobbits died.

Yes, a few Hobbits died, blah, blah -- but not many (a grand total of 19!), and the ruffians certainly were more on the receiving end of this 'battle' (actually, more of a fist fight with some cudgels, knives and arrows thrown in). I think the problem here is that you are under the common assumption that Hobbits were children or child-like, and not adults of small stature. Gandalf did not view them as helpless creatures in need of super-heroic aid, because, for good or ill, the time of their naivety was well over. Gandalf was leaving, his time for warlike deeds ended with Sauron's destruction (as Inziladun and Andsigil capably pointed out).

One never sees the full measure of a man (or Hobbit) by continually acting as the cavalry; in fact, it merely weakens one's resolve to be independent. Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin had been molded under fire to achieve their victory over Sharky/Saruman. I would say this was both Gandalf and Tolkien's intention (although, again, I see no indication that Gandalf knew for certain that Saruman was anywhere near the Shire). By throwing Gandalf into the mix, you diminish the Hobbits' singular achievement, and you cast into doubt their ability, which was proven throughout the trilogy. Indeed, you lessen the significance of their role in the War of the Ring. I'll take 'The Scouring of the Shire' over 'Gandalf Rides to the Rescue' any day.

[Alfirin]

There is one other point to consider, If Gandalf did know, but didn't do anything it was, in a certain sense a rather cruel thing to do to Frodo. The events in the shire were in some ways, a final "stab" metaphorically at frodo, showing hin that nowhere, not even in the home he loved could he escape further tragedy and sorrow. I am sure that, to the end of his days, Frodo, gentle soul that he was, felt that what had happeded in the shire was more or less wholly his own fault, not so much because he left (hew would have realized that, had he stayed the whole world would have been lost) but becase he would feel that, had he not dallied for pleasant things (Aragon's coronation, his wedding to Arwen, seein bilbo, etc.) He might have made it to the shire before Saruman even got there, and stopped him before he did damage. Frod may have well though that the blood of the hoobist who had died was on his hands, not Gandalf's. And I am sure that though the majority of the hobbits agreed that Frodo had put thing as right as he could, a few less charitable souls undobtedly still beilved that Frodo was to blame. I can only reconcile this with the fact that Frodo is meant to be a true tragic hero and as a true tragic hero and pleasure, no matter how small must come at a cost so great as to make the pleasure seem too cotsly.

[The Might]

I think the whole problem here is that people are talking about this way too superficially and from a distance, as readers. I mean of course you can do that, who cares how many Hobbits died, they don't even exist! Oh, but they do, at least in our minds, so let's try for just one second to really picture this happening.

A grand total of 19? Here is a little question for you, Morthoron and all others supporting this view - would you, if needed, sacrifice 19 of the people you know, cherish and respect for the sake of common good?
If the answer is yes, than we seem to have very different views on this. If it is no, than it would mean to me at least that you should condemn Gandalf to a certain degree for not coming along to the Shire, but sitting down and enjoying a talk with Tom Bombadil.

Now, you say that this was no longer Gandalf's business, not his errand. But firstly, should we believe that all the goods that he had done previously were only done intentionatly in order to just stop Sauron? Would he not have acted in that way had it not served his purpose? I believe that as an innate good being Gandalf would have and should have helped others, no matter what his errand was. It's not like after the Ring was destroyed he should say, "I'm done here, bye!". Not very much his character.

Furthermore, I agree that the Hobbits had to grow to a new level, to be able to stand alone for themselves, if you read the post I made previously I do not believe I question that anywhere. The thing is, do you always need blood to flow in order to learn your lesson or to change something for the better?

Is there no other path that Gandalf could have lead the Hobbits on? I would like to believe there was a more peaceful way to solve the situation with the ruffians, some kind of passive resistance or maybe simply Gandalf as a charismatic leader showing the ruffians there was more to life than just ruling over others.

Accuse me of idealism if you wish to, but in a world plagued by wars with children, not men, children enrolled by both factions dying for "great ideals", no matter what these ideals are depending on the faction, I'd rather sit down and consider some alternatives, lest we destroy ourselves as a result of the pursuit of such ideals.

[Bêthberry]

So I suppose people are disagreeing with Tolkien's decision as the author to depict the Scouring of the Shire in the way he did. What does it mean, after all, to criticise Gandalf for not stopping ole Sharkey? Is this an attempt to find a logical error in Tolkien's Legendarium? Or is this one of those hypotheticals?

After all, Gandalf is a character who acts as his author wants him to act. Are people here saying that Tolkien made a mistake in not having his wizard hero step in? That Tolkien was cruel in sacrificing 19 hobbits?

[The Might]

Ah good point, Bethberry. And yes, I would even take it as far as that and consider that Tolkien's methods should be considered somewaht outdated.

For him it seemed perhaps normal that Gandalf should act that way, that the Hobbits should fight for their rights, after all he was a war veteran and knew what it meant to sacrifice lives in battle.

So I now realise that this brings the discussion to a different level, debating whether Tolkien himself should be seen as guilty for promovating jingoistic and aggressive tendencies as opposed to more peaceful means.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

So I now realise that this brings the discussion to a different level, debating whether Tolkien himself should be seen as guilty for promovating jingoistic and aggressive tendencies as opposed to more peaceful means.

Are you saying that the War of the Ring and the Scouring of the Shire had reasonable chances of being resolved peacefully?

[The Might]

Yes.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

A good deal of this debate also can reflect upon the notion of the moral/ethical obligations of a soldier who follows the orders of his superior, no matter how repugnant he may personally feel about them. That is a matter that has been debated for a very, very long time, with no certain "correct" conclusion. Gandalf is not entirely a free agent. He is, as he himself has stated, a steward -- a person who wields some degree of authority, but under the commands of, and answerable to, superior "officers." In saying that it is "no longer his job" to fight for others or solve their problems for them, he might very well be trying to say that he is not allowed to do these things, now that his primary mission is completed. Although this does not seem to be in Gandalf's character, to me, it seems to be in character with the Valar, who fear that "unnecessary" involvement and interference with the lives and free will of the Children will have disastrous ends. It may well be that Gandalf went to visit Tom Bombadil because it was one place so detached from the events happening in the rest of Middle-earth, he might find refuge there from the heartache he surely felt over being commanded to keep out of the doings in the Shire. If he were free to choose, I do think he would have wanted to go to the aid of the Hobbits, but I cannot help but feel that he did not truly have that freedom, at this point.

Well, it's another thought.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Might

Yes.

The only "peaceful" end to the War of the Ring would have seen the West surrendering to Sauron at the start.
Likewise, diplomacy was not an option when dealing with the Ruffians. The Mayor of the Shire tried going to Bag End for a "peaceful" protest and got locked in prison for it.
Elderly Lobelia Sackville-Baggins attacked one of them with an umbrella and suffered the same fate.
If you're trying to say Gandalf could have organized some sort of passive resistance or diplomatic solution, my answer is that the Hobbits would have been just as capable of bringing that about, if it could be done at all. And it couldn't.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

Yes.

Okay, I give. How, exactly could the Ring War have been resolved peacefully- dialogue and diplomacy with (ahem) Sauron? Sauron already proved, several times, that blockading doesn't work against him. He just waits a few generations for the mortals to die out and change their policies, if not subverting them outright.

I'm curious to hear your solution.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by The Might

A grand total of 19? Here is a little question for you, Morthoron and all others supporting this view - would you, if needed, sacrifice 19 of the people you know, cherish and respect for the sake of common good?
If the answer is yes, than we seem to have very different views on this. If it is no, than it would mean to me at least that you should condemn Gandalf to a certain degree for not coming along to the Shire, but sitting down and enjoying a talk with Tom Bombadil.

So, you're saying you would not fight and die to protect your homeland, wherever it is? You know, the one you so prominently denote in your signature line:

~Honour - Freedom - Fatherland ~
< 1815 >

Not knowing your specific homeland, I will assume that your sig line denotes the German Confederation that fought against Napoleon. Were those thousands upon thousands that fought and died for freedom in the Napoleonic Wars merely wasted lives? Shouldn't they have just settled for the yoke of Napoleon's empire?

You are saying one thing, but proudly display a symbol of freedom fighters. Do you not see a contradiction?

Originally Posted by The Might

Now, you say that this was no longer Gandalf's business, not his errand. But firstly, should we believe that all the goods that he had done previously were only done intentionatly in order to just stop Sauron? Would he not have acted in that way had it not served his purpose? I believe that as an innate good being Gandalf would have and should have helped others, no matter what his errand was. It's not like after the Ring was destroyed he should say, "I'm done here, bye!". Not very much his character.

1. There is no evidence to suggest that Gandalf knew the extent of the troubles in the Shire.

2. There is no evidence that Gandalf was aware that Saruman was in the Shire.

3. There is a great bit of supporting detail indicating Gandalf found the Hobbits extraordinary, and more than capable of handling their own problems.

4. Gandalf's mission was to bring the Free Peoples together to destroy Sauron. This was why he was sent by the Valar (and he was ordered by the Valar, going only very reluctantly). Once his mission was completed and the King was crowned in Gondor, he inferred he was going on a vacation to speak at length with Bombadil. His job was indeed done, and he felt that the comrades he left behind (Aragorn and the Hobbits), great heroes and wise folk, did not need him any longer. Again, he was no longer necessary in the 4th Age - the Age of Man. This is why he left with Galadriel and Elrond. There time was finished as well.

Originally Posted by The Might

Furthermore, I agree that the Hobbits had to grow to a new level, to be able to stand alone for themselves, if you read the post I made previously I do not believe I question that anywhere. The thing is, do you always need blood to flow in order to learn your lesson or to change something for the better?

Is there no other path that Gandalf could have lead the Hobbits on? I would like to believe there was a more peaceful way to solve the situation with the ruffians, some kind of passive resistance or maybe simply Gandalf as a charismatic leader showing the ruffians there was more to life than just ruling over others.

Gandalf had nothing further to do with the Shire, or Gondor, or Rohan. He retired. People are allowed to retire (and I would suggest that dying while fighting a Balrog would be reason enough to retire). But his unshakeable faith in the Hobbits, which he had held steadfastly throughout the Trilogy, was proved correct as usual. Passive resistance? That is a 20th century movement that has nothing to do with medieval or dark age belief systems. The idea is so anachronistic as to be ludicrous. Gandalf did not ever preach passive resistance. It was not in his nature, and that would not be the message he imparted to the Hobbits, who took an active approach to defeat evil.

Originally Posted by The Might

Accuse me of idealism if you wish to, but in a world plagued by wars with children, not men, children enrolled by both factions dying for "great ideals", no matter what these ideals are depending on the faction, I'd rather sit down and consider some alternatives, lest we destroy ourselves as a result of the pursuit of such ideals.

Passive resistance only works in places where those in control have a conscience, and where there is a free press. Gandhi and Martin Luther King worked through the media on the collective consciences of their countries to foment change. This type of protest would not and did not work in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia because the media was completely controlled by the party in control and dissent meant death (and millions upon millions died without report from the press). Saruman had no conscience. The ruffians were sadistic and avaricious. Your idealism would have no precedent, and would result in the deaths of Hobbits in any case. So you certainly have more dead hobbits than 19 playing it your way.

And your rather skewed view that the War of the Ring could have been settled peacefully is unworkable. Sauron was an immortal evil, not someone to be reasoned with. We all saw what happened when Neville Chamberlain gave us 'Peace in our time' by treating with Hitler. It merely allowed Hitler the ability to conquer countries without the need for troops to fight patriots. So it would be with Sauron.

[Selmo]

Gandalf certainly knew that there were problems in The Shire for the four Hobbits to sort out but we can only speculate on how much he knew.

Would his presence during the Scouring have made much difference? A fight with Saruman's men was inevitable. I can see Gandalf drawing his sword to protect any hobbits who happened to be within his reach but not to lead an attack; that was not his way.

As for confronting Saruman, I believe that Gandalf had gone to the limit of his powers when, at Orthanc, Saruman was humiliated, cast from the Order and had his staff broken. Gandalf could do no more.
Merry and Pippin had been exposed to Saruman's only remaining weapon, his Voice. They had seen him crawl. They could not be awed by him.

Gandalf was right to leave things to the hobbits, The only difference his interference would have made would have been to make the hobbits believe that they would always have to rely on Outsiders to solve their problems.
.

[Gordis]

What was the difference of the situation in the Shire in 3019 from hundreds of similar situations before? - there was none.

For instance, it was quite plain since TA 1050 that the force that occupied Dol Guldur was no good one. From 2060 the Istari believed it was one of the nazgul living there. So, why couldn't they gather all their Maiar band and go finish the bad Necromancer, while he was still weak?

It was also plain since at least 1409 that the King of Angmar was an evil fellow and his removal would be quite beneficial for Arnor, Rivendell and all ME. So- why couldn't the Istari seek him out and vanquish by superior magic?

Same with Castamir. Kill the guy in time and lots of lives would have been saved. Yet not a single attempt at that was made by Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman. They were prohibited to display their Power and openly fight against their foes.

Instead, they had to encourage Elves and Men to unite and oppose evil. I don't think it had ever been easy for Gandalf to send those dear to him forth, often to certain death, while remaining behind the scenes, secure in his Power. Yet it was his doom. The Valar sent him to be the Steward, but neither the King, nor the wet-nurse of the ME peoples. Men, Elves and Hobbits had to take care of their problems themselves.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I believe Gandalf had an inkling there was trouble in the Shire (he had an uncanny presience, after all); however, I don't believe he was aware that Saruman was Sharky (or knew of the Sharky nick at all, for that matter). Nevertheless, 'The Scouring of the Shire' is one of the most crucial parts of LotR, because Tolkien basically wrote the quintessential 'coming of age' tale, and it was absolutely necessary for the Hobbits (Frodo, Samwise, Merry and Pippin) to solve the Hobbits' (as in the whole Shire's) problems by themselves, based on the experience they gained and travails they had to overcome throughout the book.

In essence, the Fellowship of the Ring (that is, the actual quest for the destruction of the Ring) was the training ground for these four Hobbits to gain the leadership skills necessary to overcome the danger they encountered upon their return to the Shire. Gandalf, had he even known about Saruman's presence, would most likely not have interferred with the Hobbits roles in leading the insurrection, as it is obvious he had an infinite amount of confidence in his Hobbit comrades and respect for their abilities.

It is also evident that Tolkien wrote 'The Scouring of the Shire' as an integral part of the story, with a particular emphasis on the growth of the Hobbit protagonists. They no longer needed the help of wizards or Dunedain Rangers to save their own, and this is one of the primary knocks I have against the Peter Jackson films. He missed the point entirely, it seems; or, rather, chose to glorify other lesser aspects of the story not in keeping with the author's intent.

For once you are actually make sense Morthoron! Couldn't have said it any better, there is hope for you yet.

Just like the French in 1944 when the Allies were marching on Paris. The 2nd French Armoured Division volunteered to take the primary role in the liberation against Paris, Why? Because the De Gaul believed that the french should have a role in taking back their country; the same thing can be applied to the Hobbits. How could they, as a nation under the rule of King Aragorn, be seen as a respectable province if they were dependent on a wizard for everything? Must Gandalf be blamed for everything that went wrong in the war?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

For once you are actually make sense Morthoron!

I always make sense, Groin. I believe in this instance you are merely having a lucid interlude.

[The Might]

There you are wrong, since I would not be considering diplomacy with Sauron, but with those supporting him, the Men of Khand and Harad and further into the east.

I believe they could have been reasoned with and brought on the good side.
Now you may argue that this was attempted and failed - with the Ithryn Luin setting off to the east and possibly having founded magic cults around themselves and with Gandalf having also went a bit further South (not that far) where he gained the name Incanus.

But I do not believe that all was done that could have been done. Gondor's insecurity of how to handle the southern neighbours and their seeming unwilligness to initiate any true diplomatic talks is what brought the Easterlings and the Southrons closer to Sauron.

First of all, we know they could be reasoned with, we see that after the war when peace is made with the people of the south and the east.

But unfortunately, we hear of no such attempts by kings like Romendacil or Hyarmendacil, they just conquer, but don't seem to try and win over the population.

I believe that had these people received better treatment, had Gondor invested more in helping these people they conquered, improving their lives for the better, then they would have been a lot more resistant to supporting Sauron.

Now, I will give you this, by the time of the War of the Ring it was probably already too late, this I accept, however it would not have been too late before earlier. So much for the War of the Ring.


You make a valid point that Sauron or Saruman lacked the conscience needed for such an action to work, I admit my lack of thinking deeper here, I did indeed miss that part.


And lastly, the part about my signature. It gets a bit personal there, but I won't complain, so the idea behind it is I am proudly showing that date, but not necessarily for the reason you think of, so don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. 1815 was the year when the Urburschenschaft was founded in Jena, a student organization which unlike previous ones had also political goals. Indeed they did pretty much dispise the French for their part in the war and were no big fans of Napoleon, as they had fought against him in the war as volunteers (at least many of them). But the special thing about them was that they also fought against the state order at that time, the old rooted outdated conservative structures which wanted to suppress the intelligent people in the state and get everything under the control of the nobility again with Metternich as the one leading the whole process. So they founded their organization with the motto "Honour, Freedom, Fatherland", but they were very, very liberal for that time. They were patriotic, but in a good way, not the jingoistic kind of patriotism they unfortunately later developed after 1870.

Now, the point is, it's a motto standing as a symbol for liberal ideology, for freedom. I see no contradiction between produly displaying it and in the same time looking for better (at least in my opinion) means to reach this freedom for all people. I see no problem in being proud of people that died to achieve something good in the past and trying to find new ways, again perhaps better ones to achieve something good in the present.

After all, should we not learn from history? Yes, you make a good point with Chamberlain, I agree upon that, but again looking further back in history, had England taken a more German-friendly position in the 20s and had made more pressure for an ease on reparation payments and had supported Germany's economy more, the whole Hitler episode would never had happened. Actually, England did that partially, and it almost worked. It was mostly just the Wall Stree Crash that nailed it for the Nazis. With the economy a bit stronger it all may have well worked out in the end.

So just saying "Oh, Neville was too nice and this caused all the war" is in my opinion wrong and way too one-sided. Looking back into history more in depth, one realises that had the British (and especially the French) been a bit nicer to Germany all could have probably been avoided.

Ok, sorry for the big off-topic part but I felt it was necessary to set things straigh from my point of view.


So, concluding with the Scouring of the Shire, I agree that you make a good, valid point there - Saruman had no conscience, but I doubt the ruffians had none. So it would have been very difficult indeed to manage anything without violence, but not impossible. Ruffians were not Orcs or trolls, they were men, bad men, but in the end still men and not some mental people. So the idea is that maybe one could have done things like Frodo did. If you look at the Battle of Bywater he seems to have had a position more like mine, whilst Sam would have been on your side. He refused to take part and to kill sentient beings for the common good and spent his time making sure no ruffian who gave up were killed by Hobbits.

Moving further, did the Scouring make Hobbits better? And mark the question, it's not did it make it better for the Hobbits, but made them better. I believe not. It took away their inocence, best example is the killing of Wormtongue. The exhausted and tormented Wormtongue kills his evil master and gets three arrows in his body in return from Hobbit archers before Frodo could intervene and stop them from killing him. Great way to end a war.

So yes, perhaps violence was the only way to make things better for the Hobbits, but it did exactly the opposite with their characters.


Btw, sorry for respoding after so much time, I was afk this whole time and only got the chance to type all this now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, I really like this thread and I pity that I don't have that much time to give to it, but for now I will add just a few rather sideway notes

Originally Posted by Gordis

Same with Castamir. Kill the guy in time and lots of lives would have been saved.

This is actually one thing about the history where I have to confront with the question "does one monarch really change the history that much?". Do you think it is all just because of Castamir in person? What, lots of lives. It was the nobility of Gondor itself which had some reservations with the king, had it been just about Castamir, he would not have succeeded. Later, they wanted already to get rid of him. But still, there were some who stood alongside him, and there would have been some who would have opposed the return of the king to his throne, even if Castamir was slain. Or maybe it won't be Castamir, but his deputy would have done the same and continued in his name had he died. The general idea is: it's not really the one king who makes the history. Of course, depending on how strong his personality is, he might have a strong impact on his era, but still, there is a certain "general pressure"... so, simply put, I believe that by killing one Castamir, you would not have prevented the war. The "anti-royalists" would have lost the legitimate background for their claims, but still, some tension would bubble at least in the cauldron, and such a Castamir could come in two or three generations again, or some people would just revolt against Gondor and form an "Umbar" on their own account, maybe electing some noblemen among themselves to lead them (I am sure there will be somebody well-suited for that, and some at least far relative of the king).

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

How could they, as a nation under the rule of King Aragorn, be seen as a respectable province if they were dependent on a wizard for everything?

And must the Hobbits be a respectable province? Why? They were always simple and peaceful people, and I agree on what Miggy said in his last post - I am actually not sure if this "making their stand in the world" was good for them. Okay, perhaps yes in the sense: they were prepared to face the "outside world", the era of Men... weird... sounds almost like something Saruman would have wanted... even though he is dead, his thought continues and grows... and he was actually wise, what he said, has really happened... the Old Times have passed, the new world arose... And perhaps the "old hobbits" would not have survived in the Fourth Age...

[Pitchwife]

Legate, I wonder whether you've read "Making History" by Stephen Fry. If not, you might enjoy it - it supports your argument about Castamir beautifully. It's about somebody going back in time to kill Hitler before he gained power (or even prevent him being born - I'm not sure about the details), but when he returns to the present he finds that one of Hitler's WWI buddies has taken the Fuehrer's place and made everything much worse - IIRC by actually winning WWII...

Back to Middle-earth. I'm not so sure about the Hobbits always having been a peaceful people. Didn't they send archers to help King Arvedui against Angmar? Didn't Bandobras Took invent golf by beheading an Orc leader in battle? They had proven their ability to defend themselves fighting before the Scouring, although they were somewhat out of practice and needed some stirring to remember.

If taking care of Saruman and his ruffians was anybody's responsibility apart from the Hobbits themselves, I'd say it was King Elessar's rather than Gandalf's - the Shire being a province of his Reunited Kingdom, etcetera. Isn't it a king's job to keep peace and order in his kingdom? Of course he couldn't be bothered at the time, being busy in Gondor, even if he'd known what was going on in the north, but I see Merry and Pippin sort of acting as his unappointed deputies in organizing the Hobbit resistance. ("You are speaking to a friend of the King" - either M or P to one of the ruffians; and Pip was wearing the livery of the Tower of the Guard, so it was probably him.)

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

There you are wrong, since I would not be considering diplomacy with Sauron, but with those supporting him, the Men of Khand and Harad and further into the east.

I believe they could have been reasoned with and brought on the good side.
Now you may argue that this was attempted and failed - with the Ithryn Luin setting off to the east and possibly having founded magic cults around themselves and with Gandalf having also went a bit further South (not that far) where he gained the name Incanus.

But I do not believe that all was done that could have been done. Gondor's insecurity of how to handle the southern neighbours and their seeming unwilligness to initiate any true diplomatic talks is what brought the Easterlings and the Southrons closer to Sauron.

First of all, we know they could be reasoned with, we see that after the war when peace is made with the people of the south and the east.

But unfortunately, we hear of no such attempts by kings like Romendacil or Hyarmendacil, they just conquer, but don't seem to try and win over the population.

I believe that had these people received better treatment, had Gondor invested more in helping these people they conquered, improving their lives for the better, then they would have been a lot more resistant to supporting Sauron.

It's possible, I'll grant you. But I doubt it. As I mentioned before, Sauron proved that blockading him doesn't work. He only has to wait a few generations for the pitiful little mortals to die out and change their policies. That's assuming he hasn't patiently subverted them outright. Sure, Gondor could have befriended the men of Khand and Harad... for the time being. But what would happen after, say, 500 years, which is a meager amount of time to Sauron? Look at how many times over the last 200 years alliances and oppositions have changed in Europe between the UK, France, Spain, Germany (in its various incarnations), Russia, and Turkey. Every one of them has been both ally and enemy of the other at some point.

Sauron is immortal. And bent on conquering Middle Earth. And evil (Let's keep it at that. I'm not into moral relativism and I'm utterly unconcerned with what things look like from the points of view of Sauron or the various orc races). You can't blockade or defend against him forever, otherwise he finds a way around you. Eventually you have to take the offensive against him.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by The Might

There you are wrong, since I would not be considering diplomacy with Sauron, but with those supporting him, the Men of Khand and Harad and further into the east.

But I do not believe that all was done that could have been done. Gondor's insecurity of how to handle the southern neighbours and their seeming unwilligness to initiate any true diplomatic talks is what brought the Easterlings and the Southrons closer to Sauron.

Diplomacy on a scale you are referring to is a fairly new development in the history of Man, and therefore is not germane to the era of the War of the Ring (as is passive resistance -- an entirely alien process, to be sure). For instance, diplomacy was not as advanced in medieval Europe, where treaties basically boiled down to Kings marrying off sons and daughters in the hope of not being attacked. More often than not, this sort of intermarriage only caused genetic deficiencies and did not reduce war in the least. In the case of Middle-earth in the 3rd or 4th Age, we see intermarriage as the main interaction between kingdoms; therefore, he that wielded the greatest power in an area (and in Khand and Harad, that would be Sauron), had the greatest influence. There was also the coercive power of the One Ring to consider.

Originally Posted by The Might

First of all, we know they could be reasoned with, we see that after the war when peace is made with the people of the south and the east.

After the fall of Sauron, the orcs fled, but the Easterlings and Haradrim fought on to the last man. These were not reasonable folk. And Aragorn fought many battles further in the East in the 4th Age. Whatever nice things you'd like to say about Aragorn, he was first and foremost an emperor, conquering and subjugating people and extending the power of Gondor over an area further than any king previously. He may have been an enlightened emperor, but he was a conquering emperor nonetheless.

Originally Posted by The Might

Now, the point is, it's a motto standing as a symbol for liberal ideology, for freedom. I see no contradiction between produly displaying it and in the same time looking for better (at least in my opinion) means to reach this freedom for all people. I see no problem in being proud of people that died to achieve something good in the past and trying to find new ways, again perhaps better ones to achieve something good in the present.

I understand completely TM. Perhaps you should be as equally proud of the Hobbits, who fought and died for freedom in the same manner as your ancestors.

Originally Posted by The Might

After all, should we not learn from history? Yes, you make a good point with Chamberlain, I agree upon that, but again looking further back in history, had England taken a more German-friendly position in the 20s and had made more pressure for an ease on reparation payments and had supported Germany's economy more, the whole Hitler episode would never had happened. Actually, England did that partially, and it almost worked. It was mostly just the Wall Stree Crash that nailed it for the Nazis. With the economy a bit stronger it all may have well worked out in the end.

Actually, had the European allies listened to Woodrow Wilson, there might not have been a WWII. But the Treaty of Versailles after WWI was so spiteful and vengeful against the Germans, it almost guaranteed a second war. But, of course, so many millions died in WWI because of senseless German bellicosity under the megalomaniacal rule of Wilhelm and his woodenheaded generals, that I find it difficult to blame the French or English in wishing to punish the Germans.

Originally Posted by The Might

So just saying "Oh, Neville was too nice and this caused all the war" is in my opinion wrong and way too one-sided. Looking back into history more in depth, one realises that had the British (and especially the French) been a bit nicer to Germany all could have probably been avoided.

Neville Chamberlain can best be summed up in a frank appraisal by Winston Churchill: "In the depths of that dusty soul there is nothing but abject surrender."

Chamberlain underestimated or ignored the evil intent of Hitler time and time again. Czechoslovakia had a superb army and a great munitions supplier, Skoda, and were more than capable of battling the Nazis, but Chamberlain handed the country to Hitler without a fight, which also left Poland exposed in the process. Chamberlain's method of appeasement is the worst possible example of diplomacy in the modern era.

Originally Posted by The Might

Moving further, did the Scouring make Hobbits better? And mark the question, it's not did it make it better for the Hobbits, but made them better. I believe not. It took away their inocence, best example is the killing of Wormtongue. The exhausted and tormented Wormtongue kills his evil master and gets three arrows in his body in return from Hobbit archers before Frodo could intervene and stop them from killing him. Great way to end a war.

If you really follow the history of the Hobbits, they were a race doomed to obliteration eventually. The Battle of Bywater marked their high water point in history, and once the dynasty of Telcontar waned, it is certain Hobbitish fortune waned with it. In any case, you are confusing the point at which they lost their naivety. It was Saruman who stole their innocence, not the Hobbits rebelling against despotism and slavery. One might as well have asked Jews in a concentration camp to attempt diplomacy with Nazi guards. A fat lot of good that would have done.

[The Might]

Andsigil,

Ok, now to the alliances in M-e.

I very much disagree. Ever heard of the Ride of Eorl and the Oath of Eorl and Cirion? Any son of Cirion marrying a daughter of Eorl? I doubt it. This was the greatest alliance in western M-e in the Third Age, founded on friendship and support of the other in need and was always respected by both sides. Always.

So why shoulöd we be so sure that an alliance with Khand and Harad would not have been just as powerful, even against the passing of the centuries and the threat of Sauron? Are you suggesting that the Men of the South and East were weaker or greedier or more evil only because of one example in the First Age of them betraying the Elves?

Yes, some of them fought on to the last man in the Battle of the Morannon and some continued to remain hostile after Sauron's fall.

Now, going very much off-topic, I recall several discusions on racism and Tolkien's feeling of a perhaps certain inferiority of these men, as a weaker or less nobler race. He himself came from South Africa, so he knew what racial discrimination was, and often we see that these dark skinned men are depicted as evil, but I doubt it was Tolkien's target to discriminate anyone and I doubt that believed them to be weaker.

To compare this with recent events you probably heard of, some Haradrim were perhaps a bit Hamas-like, but this does not mean that long lasting peace with them was impossible. And same goes for Khand.

I personally feel that by working together all the Men could defeat Sauron. And yes, as said in the previous long post I acknowledge that eventually violence would be necessary since neither Sauron nor his minions, Orcs and Trolls (althought debateble), had a true conscience. So it would have in the end came to a fight, but with the other Men on the side of good and avoiding a war to the extent of the War of the Ring.


Morthoron,

Firstly, look to the above example of Rohan and Gondor to see a very modern alliance. And it had precedents.

And another thing - I have just found an example speaking against your idea of medieval alliances in Middle-earth.

We have the year 1250 of the Third Age. Gondor is pretty strong, but so is the Kingdom of Rhovanion, the predecessors of the Eotheod. What would make sense? That a Gondorian prince marries a Rhovanion princess. And it happens, but not how you say.

Valacar, son of Romendacil II is sent as an ambassador to Rhovanion were he falls in love with Vidugavia's daughter Vidumavi. Firstly, mark the word love, something you almost never found in medieval marriages, and when Tolkien says love he means it. Secondly, Romendacil II was at first against the marriage. By your logic he should have been really glad, but he was actually concerned with what effects the marriage may have, realising that many people of Gondor may not like her as of non-Numenorean descent. But as he did not want to offent the Northmen he agreed in the end.

So as we see, in M-e exactly the opposite was true - marriages did happen between kingdoms, but because of love not because anyone wanted to strengthen relationships. If alliances happened, then based on honour and truth, as with Rohan and Gondor.


As for the Easterlings, I already stated my opinion of an alliance with them above.

Furthermore, I am not sure if you do understand me. I am not saying I am not proud of the Hobbits ready to give their lives for this cause, of course their courage and bravery is something to be proud of, but not necessary worth emulating. Why not consider some better way of getting out of that sticky situation?


Ok, now I really am getting started. German bellicosity starting WWI? You sound just like Clemenceau, so one-sided and without any deeper thinking.

Now, I'll give you this - a lot of historians believed Germany to be the sole country with guilt for WWI, but things changed and most historians agree that it was a complex mixture of motives on ALL sides that led to the war starting so easily.

Now, I first wanted to sum all my ideas on my own, but in my research I found that the Wikipedia articles already sums it up fairly well. I know it's lazy of me to just copy paste, but still I wish you a pleasant read. I have btw highlightened some of the parts I feel show clearly how much guilt other states had.

On 28 June 1914, Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb student, shot and killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne in Sarajevo. Princip was a member of Young Bosnia, a group whose aims included the unification of the South Slavs and independence from Austria-Hungary. The assassination in Sarajevo set into motion a series of fast-moving events that eventually escalated into full-scale war.[7] Austria-Hungary demanded action by Serbia to punish those responsible and, when Austria-Hungary deemed Serbia had not complied, declared war. Major European powers were at war within weeks because of overlapping agreements for collective defense and the complex nature of international alliances.

Arms race

The German industrial base had, by 1914, overtaken that of Britain, though Germany did not have the commercial advantages of a large empire. In the years running up to the war a race to possess the strongest navy arose between Britain and Germany, each country building large numbers of dreadnoughts. The naval race between Britain and Germany was intensified by the 1906 launch of HMS Dreadnought, a revolutionary craft whose size and power rendered previous battleships obsolete. Britain also maintained a large naval lead in other areas particularly over Germany and Italy.
David Stevenson described the arms race as "a self-reinforcing cycle of heightened military preparedness."[8] David Herrmann viewed the shipbuilding rivalry as part of a general movement in the direction of war.[9] The revisionist Niall Ferguson, however, argued Britain's ability to maintain an overall lead signified this was not a factor in the oncoming conflict.[10]
The cost of the arms race was felt in both Britain and Germany. The total arms spending by the six Great Powers (Britain, Germany, France, Russia, Austria-Hungary and Italy) increased by 50% between 1908 and 1913.[11]

Plans, distrust, and mobilization

Closely related is the thesis adopted by many political scientists that the mobilization plans of Germany, France and Russia automatically escalated the conflict. Due to the complicated logistics required to activate, move, and supply millions of troops, each nation's mobilization plans were worked out well in advance, creating a situation where mobilization almost required the country to immediately go on the attack. In particular, historian Fritz Fischer emphasized the inherently aggressive nature of the Schlieffen Plan, which outlined a two-front strategy. Fighting on two fronts meant Germany had to eliminate one opponent quickly before taking on the other. It called for a strong right flank attack, to seize Belgium and cripple the French army by pre-empting its mobilization. After the attack, the German army would rush east by railroad and quickly destroy the slowly mobilizing Russian forces.[12]
France's Plan XVII envisioned a quick thrust into the Ruhr Valley, Germany’s industrial heartland, which would in theory cripple Germany's ability to wage a modern war.
Russia's Plan 19 foresaw a concurrent mobilization of its armies against Austria-Hungary, Germany, and the Ottomans, while Plan 19 Revised saw Austria-Hungary as the main target, reducing the initial commitment of troops against East Prussia.[13][14]
All three plans created an atmosphere in which speed was thought to be one of the determining factors for victory. Elaborate timetables were prepared; once mobilization had begun, there was little possibility of turning back. Diplomatic delays and poor communications exacerbated the problems.
Also, the plans of France, Germany and Russia were all biased toward the offensive, in clear conflict with the improvements of defensive firepower and entrenchment.[15][16][17][18]

Militarism and autocracy

US President Woodrow Wilson and others blamed the war on militarism.[19] Some argued that aristocrats and military élites had too much power in countries such as Germany, Russia, and Austria-Hungary.[20] War was thus a consequence of their desire for military power and disdain for democracy. This theme figured prominently in anti-German propaganda.[21][22] When the German effort was failing in 1918, calls grew for the abdication of rulers such as Kaiser Wilhelm II[23], as well as an end to aristocracy and militarism in general. This platform provided some justification for the American entry into the war when the Russian Empire surrendered in 1917.[24]
The Allies consisted of Great Britain and France, both democracies, fighting the Central Powers, which included Germany, Austro-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire. Russia, one of the Allied Powers, was an empire until 1917, but it was opposed to the subjugation of Slavic peoples by Austro-Hungary. Against this backdrop, the view of the war as one of democracy versus dictatorship initially had some validity, but lost credibility as the conflict continued.
Wilson hoped the League of Nations and disarmament would secure a lasting peace. Borrowing a thesis from H. G. Wells, he described the war as a "war to end all war". He was willing to side with France and the Britain to this end, despite their own militarism.
Fritz Fischer famously[25] put most of the blame on Germany's aristocratic leaders. He argued that the German leaders thought they were losing power and time was running out. The German social democratic party had won several elections, increasing their voting share and had by 1912 become the most represented party in Germany. While the elected institutions had little power compared with the Kaiser it was feared that some form of political revolution was imminent. Russia was in midst of a large scale military build-up and reform which was to be completed in 1916-17. A war would unite Germany and defeat Russia before this. In his later works Fischer went further and argued[26] that Germany had planned the war in 1912.
Historian Samuel R. Williamson has emphasized the role of Austria-Hungary. Convinced that Serbian nationalism and Russian Balkan ambitions were disintegrating a monarchy comprising eleven different nationalities, Austria-Hungary hoped for a limited war against Serbia and that the strong German support would force Russia to keep out of the war and weaken its Balkan prestige.[27]

Balance of power

One of the goals of the foreign policies of the Great Powers in the pre-war years was to maintain the 'Balance of Power' in Europe. This evolved into an elaborate network of secret and public alliances and agreements. For example, after the Franco-Prussian War (1870–71), Britain seemed to favour a strong Germany, as it helped to balance its traditional enemy, France. After Germany began its naval construction plans to rival that of Britain, this stance shifted. France, looking for an ally to balance the threat created by Germany, found it in Russia. Austria-Hungary, facing a threat from Russia, sought support from Germany.
When World War I broke out, these treaties only partially determined who entered the war on which side. Britain had no treaties with France or Russia, but entered the war on their side. Italy had a treaty with both Austria-Hungary and Germany, yet did not enter the war with them; Italy later sided with the Allies. Perhaps the most significant treaty of all was the initially defensive pact between Germany and Austria-Hungary, which Germany in 1909 extended by declaring that Germany was bound to stand with Austria-Hungary even if it had started the war.[28]

Economic imperialism

Vladimir Lenin asserted that imperialism was responsible for the war. He drew upon the economic theories of Karl Marx and English economist John A. Hobson, who predicted that unlimited competition for expanding markets would lead to a global conflict.[29] Lenin and others pointed out that the dominant economic position of Great Britain was threatened by the rapid rise of German industry; However, Germany did not have the commercial advantages of a major empire, and was therefore inevitably going to fight Britain for more economic space for German capital. This argument was popular in the wake of the war and assisted in the rise of Communism. Lenin argued that the banking interests of various capitalist-imperialist powers orchestrated the war.[30]

Trade barriers

Cordell Hull, American Secretary of State under Franklin Roosevelt, believed that trade barriers were the root cause of both World War I and World War II. In 1944, he helped design the Bretton Woods Agreements to reduce trade barriers and eliminate what he saw as the cause of the conflicts.[31][32]

Ethnic and political rivalries

A Balkan war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia was considered inevitable, as Austria-Hungary’s influence waned and the Pan-Slavic movement grew. The rise of ethnic nationalism coincided with the growth of Serbia, where anti-Austrian sentiment was perhaps most fervent. Austria-Hungary had occupied the former Ottoman province of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which had a large Serb population, in 1878. It was formally annexed by Austria-Hungary in 1908. Increasing nationalist sentiment also coincided with the decline of the Ottoman Empire. Russia supported the Pan-Slavic movement, motivated by ethnic and religious loyalties and a rivalry with Austria dating back to the Crimean War. Recent events such as the failed Russian-Austrian treaty and a century-old dream of a warm water port also motivated St. Petersburg.[33]
Myriad other geopolitical motivations existed elsewhere as well, for example France's loss of Alsace and Lorraine in the Franco-Prussian War helped create a sentiment of irredentist revanchism in that country. France eventually allied itself with Russia, creating the likelihood of a two-front war for Germany.

Ok, I know, huge quote, but a good read I hope. Also, I hope you realise that all the secret alliances, ethnic tensions, arms races, ultraconservative elites all played a part in the war starting.

So don't be so hasty to say that it was clear that the French and the British had all the right to punish the Germans as they did. It's this kind of immoral and somewhat even evil and aggresive policies that make our world a worse place to live in for all of us.
Instead of trying to support Germany, let's just punish them to the extent that they will starve and die and never again attack us. Or will maybe those conditions make them become even more extremist? (nobody thought about that question)


On to Neville Chamberlain. I am well aware that his decision was wrongly made at that point in time, indeed had Great Britain acted when the Sudeten Crisis started they would have prevented Germany from taking over Czechoslovakia.

Same goes for France when Germany militarized the Ruhr in 1936. Why did they not intervene? They approx. 100,000 Germany would have been hopelessly overrun by French and Hitler would have lost a lot of the power he had.

Yes, good questions. And maybe violence would have been good there. But why not look deeper into history and consider other events where violence did nothing but to push the Germans closer to Hitler - say the French invasion of the Ruhr in 1923?

And as said before, a peaceful, friendly approach would have surely prevented a Nazi take-over had it not been for the Wall Street Crash. The Young Plan and the Dawes Plan both helping Germany economically cope with reparations payments, the Locarno Treaty in 1925 and Germany's adderation to the League of Nations in 1926 all showed that working together was possible and desirable. But all these events were unfortunately only possible with the background of economic growth in the 1920s. With the Wall Street Crash everything changed, all states turned to isolationism instead of communication with other states, and it is here that I see the bigger mistake.

Not Chamberlain's failure to deal with Hitler should be brought to all people's attention, the poor man is but a scapegoat. It is the failure of all the allied powers - France, Britain, USA - to continue to support weak Germany and to communicate with its leaders that was really the big mistake. Suddently all only cared about inner policy and dealing with rising economic problems, a big mistake if you ask me. Had the states continued to work together for their common good, then all would have been averted, the rise in Nazi popularity, Hitler's rise to power, WWII.

To be so superficial and not take that into account, but just complain about Chamberlain not kicking Hitler's *** is easy, he's the one you have to blame. But let's be honest and admit that he was, like Germany at the start of WWI, not the only one making a mistake.

So, as with the War of the Ring, same goes for WWII, perhaps violence was in order at that time, but looking back over the events prior to that we realise in both cases that treating your neighbours better and putting more effort into international relations is for the best.


I personally feel that the Hobbits would have had a better chance of surviving in the Fourth Age by staying peaceful and keeping to their ways. Trying to emulate the behavior of men, such as Gondorians would only bring them destruction. They would too be subject to greed, power hungry leaders would arise from their ranks and maybe try to conquer Bree for example, leading to more Hobbit deaths.

Instead, why not let them be as they always had been, separated from the rest of the world, as Aragorn btw intended as it was forbidded for outsiders to enter the Shire I believe, and let them keep their special position within M-e. And if something bad happened, if outsiders did threaten them once the House of Telcontar was done ruling? Well, then they had to simply disappear, move on, hide. Somehow, I do not feel that fighting back would have been a better option for them in that case. I rather see them surviving by fleeing than fighting in the Fourth Age.

And another idea, as you will see below, I doubt Hobbits could be changed and made to grow up, it was not their nature to be like Men.


Pitchwife,

That is a great thought, I must admit. Hobbits had already fought off invaders and somehow the Scouring of the Shire may not have had that bad of an effect in the end after all as I think about it.

Think about it, Hobbits fought of Orcs and fought against the forces of Angmar, but within a short time span they all but forgot about this and returned to their peaceful, natural way of life.
So why should we not believe that the same happened after the Scouring of the Shire?
Maybe in a few centuries of peaceful rule by the Telcontar they again returned to a peaceful way of life, forgetting the need to defend themselves against outsiders. This would in my opinion most surely happen.

So, firstly, did the Scouring then even make sense? If the Hobbits would anyway perhaps return to a peaceful way of life did it make sense for Gandalf to first let them fight off the invaders? The deaths of the 19 Hobbits would then perhaps be worthless. The battle would be forgotten, same goes for the Roll with the names of all those who participated.
So why let them fight the battle in the first place?

A very intriguing question indeed, I look forward to replies to it.


Bah, another huge post, but I'll sum it up like this - at least the part that is of interest to the topic at hand - Hobbits were just that way, innocent, natural, unspoiled. And neither Orcs nor forces of Angmar seem to have taken that away from them. So why would Saruman and ruffians manage it? Maybe they were meant to stay that way, meant to perhaps unfortunately disappear in the Fourth Age. So if this was the case, why the battle? 19 lives for nothing?

I have to take a break now, my fingers hurt a bit already.

[Andsigil]

TM,

As for Tolkien's depiction of the alliance between Rohan and Gondor lasting, they were like people in a way which the people of Khand and Harad were not like them. Besides, it was a plot device.

As I said before, history is on my side in this. Even the countries of Europe can't go more than half a century without changing sides. On top of that, Sauron is immortal and has, literally, all the time on the (Middle) Earth to subvert allies.

[The Might]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

TM,

As for Tolkien's depiction of the alliance between Rohan and Gondor lasting, they were like people in a way which the people of Khand and Harad were not like them.

And history on your side? Maybe our recent history of the 19th and 20th century. But our history is not M-e's history. Don't be so sure that men aren't capable of sustaining an alliance for a long period of time, especially if it was based on such positive values.

EDIT: as I said, violence would be the last means eventually, I said that above. If Sauron's minions had no conscience and could not be reasoned with, which is debatable, nothing else could be done about it. And this I agree with, it was a point made by Morthoron I believe that only an enemy with conscience can be persuaded without fighting, a valid point which I accept. So Sauron would also in my opinion NOT have all the time in M-e.

[Andsigil]

And history on your side? Maybe our recent history of the 19th and 20th century. But our history is not M-e's history. Don't be so sure that men aren't capable of sustaining an alliance for a long period of time, especially if it was based on such positive values.

EDIT: as I said, violence would be the last means eventually, I said that above. If Sauron's minions had no conscience and could not be reasoned with, which is debatable, nothing else could be done about it. And this I agree with, it was a point made by Morthoron I believe that only an enemy with conscience can be persuaded without fighting, a valid point which I accept. So Sauron would also in my opinion NOT have all the time in M-e.

It's more than just our recent history. Show me how many alliances in the last 4000 years have lasted more than, say, two centuries. Gondor and Rohan were very much the exception, and not the rule.

[The Might]

So then, tell me, in what way are the Haradrim or the Variags different? Incapable of making lasting alliances? Why, is it in their blood, in their genes, is there anything about them that makes them incapable to act like the Rohirrim and the Gondorians?

Sorry for my indeed blunt response, but when I see no proof at all for your speculation of them being different I speculate myself.

And as I said, stop putting an equal sign between M-e and our world. Yes, Tolkien said something about us being in the Seventh Age and some British seaman having ended up in Aman and having talked to Pengolodh and other Elves. But let's be serious, Arda is not the Earth, the histories are different, we are talking about a fantasy world. And so why should Gondor and Rohan be an exception? Just because it happened to work out properly, what about alliances between Elves and Men in the First Age. They all worked out, except the one with the Easterlings unfortunately. Same goes for those between Elves, except for the Children of Feanor.

Why is it so difficult to accept that maybe in M-e alliances between good people turned out right and could stay that way. Only because in our world that was not the case? Doesn't Tolkien maybe want to teach us a lesson here, that alliances for good are possible and desirable and can last? Or is he pointing out that M-e is just as common and plain as our world?

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Back to Middle-earth. I'm not so sure about the Hobbits always having been a peaceful people. Didn't they send archers to help King Arvedui against Angmar? Didn't Bandobras Took invent golf by beheading an Orc leader in battle? They had proven their ability to defend themselves fighting before the Scouring, although they were somewhat out of practice and needed some stirring to remember.

Exactly, so if you look at it like that the hobbits were not abandoning their old peaceful principles to become better equipped for the age of men, they were just uncovering some old forgotten traits that were instinctively theirs. The four adventurers certainly had the stamina and courage in them to take on a quest as they did and Bilbo was chosen by Gandalf because of his Tookish heritage, as we all know the Tooks were a bit "queer" by hobbit standards. Besides I don't think the hobbits had much of a choice in the matter, it was fight for their survival or be made into serfs.

The hobbits as a culture had reached the point of "perfection." They no longer possessed the ability to create new and better things, or to do the great things of their ancestors, the only thing that they could do was talk about the great things that their forefathers did and to mimic the deeds as best they could. This attitude needed to change eventually, and as almost always it does, it took drastic circumstances for them to wake up.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

So then, tell me, in what way are the Haradrim or the Variags different? Incapable of making lasting alliances? Why, is it in their blood, in their genes, is there anything about them that makes them incapable to act like the Rohirrim and the Gondorians?

Culture, for starters. They share nothing in common culturally. Certainly, alliances can be made between total opposites, but they rarely have staying power.

Sorry for my indeed blunt response, but when I see no proof at all for your speculation of them being different I speculate myself.

And your speculation is absurd. Good God, what are they teaching young people in schools these days? "Go for the racist label as soon as possible in any debate!" Ridiculous. Contemptible.

And as I said, stop putting an equal sign between M-e and our world. Yes, Tolkien said something about us being in the Seventh Age and some British seaman having ended up in Aman and having talked to Pengolodh and other Elves. But let's be serious, Arda is not the Earth, the histories are different, we are talking about a fantasy world. And so why should Gondor and Rohan be an exception? Just because it happened to work out properly, what about alliances between Elves and Men in the First Age. They all worked out, except the one with the Easterlings unfortunately. Same goes for those between Elves, except for the Children of Feanor.

Why is it so difficult to accept that maybe in M-e alliances between good people turned out right and could stay that way. Only because in our world that was not the case? Doesn't Tolkien maybe want to teach us a lesson here, that alliances for good are possible and desirable and can last? Or is he pointing out that M-e is just as common and plain as our world?

You're actually the one putting equal signs between this world (the current, modern one) and ME, with your call for alliances, dialogue, and understanding. As Morthoron already pointed out, alliances like you speak of are a recent invention.

Tolkien was a student of history, languages, and mythology. It's entirely fair to take this world's history and mythology as his base, and then assume he changed things from there. Therefore, things like human emotions and rationale maintain a consistency with this world and we don't find superfluous situations like a Khand-Gondor alliance, beautiful in its contrived and 21st century multiculturalism, in opposition of Sauron, forever keeping him at bay (as if...), and formed out of mutual brotherhood and love so as not to offend your sensibilities against what you think is jingoism.

[Bêthberry]

Popping in here with a few observations . . . . My take is that Tolkien was not writing an allegory of his century (see his comments in the Foreward to the Second Edition of LotR) so I fail to see how arguments about who started what war in that century have any bearing on LotR. Much of this thread sounds like an opportunity to argue about war in the Twentieth Century. The applicability to LotR is tenuous, which after all owes more to ancient battle epics and sagas than to Carl Von Clausewitz's On War. Lost in all of this (at least for this boring old Tolkien reader) is the question of whether it is appropriate to blame Gandalf for the events of the Scouring of the Shire.

I would, however, like to make a humble comment on the use of the digital symbol @, to address the arguments of fellow Downers. My reservations about this might be due to English being my native language, and so perhaps any sensitivies about using @ to address posters would not belong to those who are not as familiar with English as I am. However, using @ to address a person reminds me very strongly of the English phrase, "have at" someone or something. In the Wiktionary (which admittedly is not the only dictionary), the archaic phrase is said to mean "to attack or engage in combat with." At dictionary.com, the definition is given as, "to go at vigorously; attack". While such an association might be well suited to the topic of warfare, I find it a tad harsh for our dour, staid, polite habits on the Downs. While it doesn't quite merit the description of a flame, it leans a bit too much towards internet attacks, particularly in a thread where feelings about responsibility for recent wars obviously touch personal nerves and where comments are verging on the personal. Could we please forgo using @ to address comments to particular posters and rely on that very handy device called "quote" which is readily available?

Really, I think the question that Gandalf was responsible for the deaths of hobits is too close to post modern deconstructions of meanings to be, well, meaningful. LotR begins with a detailed and affectionate look at hobbit culture--which is not devoid of violence--remember the Bonfire Glade and the battle with the trees of the Old Forest--and ends with a depiction of the consequences of the War of the Ring on that culture. It's a full circle and to suggest that Gandalf could have avoided it is, I think, to miss both the narrative closure and the consequence of war, even distant war. It is, after all, as Tolkien said he wanted, a ripping good yarn, fantasy, and not history.

Now, boys, I'll let you back to your war games.

[The Might]

Firstly, about the historical references, you will see above that I was not the one who started them, I merely pointed out several historical mistakes or false interpretations in my opinion. It thus came about in the discussion that historical references were used as comparisons for events in Arda.

Secondly, refering to the "@" symbol, I was under no circumstances aware of its aggressive connotation. I have seen it used and used it myself on another forum and none of use ever did it in an aggressive context, but only to save some time for typing so to speak. I usually avoid that here on the Downs, since we don't use short forms of words, etc., but it seems to have stuck.

Now that I know that some may feel offended by its use I will refrain from using it here any longer. Thank you for your information in that respect, Bêthberry! I will edit my post above and remove the @s.

That is an interesting take on the question of guilt, and seeing it that way the question does lose its importance. Then again, seen that way many of the questions raised by his work make little sense, since it would be necessary for the author to depict things in a certain way.


And Andsigil, I will repeat that said above. I never said he would be "kept at bay for ever", I merely said that an alliance with the Easterlings and Southrons would have very much weakened Sauron and would have brought the free people of M-e in a much stronger position.

And yes, culture was a barrier, indeed. There were many differences between them, but simply looking back at Elves and Men of the First Age there were a lot more differences, even different races. And that worked out... so why wouldn't this work out?

And yes, you are correct about the debate part. Here in Germany most people do go for the accusation of being a Nazi when trying to end any debate, but that was not my intention.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

And Andsigil, I will repeat that said above. I never said he would be "kept at bay for ever", I merely said that an alliance with the Easterlings and Southrons would have very much weakened Sauron and would have brought the free people of M-e in a much stronger position.

But conflict was still inevitable. So, accusing Tolkien of jingoism doesn't make sense.

And yes, culture was a barrier, indeed. There were many differences between them, but simply looking back at Elves and Men of the First Age there were a lot more differences, even different races. And that worked out... so why wouldn't this work out?

It worked out with some of the men. It certainly didn't work out with the Easterlings led by Uldor and Ulfang in the Nírnaeth Arnoediad, did it? And by no means are the Edain depicted as any majority among humankind. Tolkien took great care to depict the Edain as an exception.

And yes, you are correct about the debate part. Here in Germany most people do go for the accusation of being a Nazi when trying to end any debate, but that was not my intention.

So, what was your intention in this absurd implication of racism, then?

[The Might]

Merely to find out what was so different about the Easterlings and the Southrons in your opinion so as to prevent them from becoming virtually viable alliance partners for Gondor and Rohan.

As an example again to the question of culture, what about the Druedain?

A totally different culture, different to all other groups of men, with probably bigger differences between themselves and the Gondorians then Gondorians and the others mentioned above. Still, they coexisted peacefully with the Men of Brethil, then in Númenor and finally helped out the Rohirrim and the Gondorians.

And yes, conflict was inevitable, so I was not accusing Tolkien of violence in general, at least not in the latter posts, but merely excessive use of violence at times, in situations where I rather see discussion as possibility.

Again, from your idea with the Edain I am getting the idea your are clearly drawing a line between some men and other men. Hence my blunt and offensive question above for which I again apologize.

You say it is Tolkien depicting them like that, as better than the rest of mankind. They are indeed special in his writings, but I do not believe the Professor ever intended to draw such a line of separation, I doubt it would be his style or his intention.

Tolkien wrote:

in a draft of a letter (#30) to a publisher in Nazi Germany who asked about his race, and in Letter #29 he introduced that draft and told his publisher, "I should regret giving any colour to the notion that I
subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." ~ quote taken from an essay against the idea that Tolkien's writings are intolerant and racist

The whole idea is Tolkien himself did not see the Southrons and Easterlings as bad, evil, or really that different than the Edain, and I doubt that he wanted his readers to perceive them that way.

So why would an alliance be so unlikely?


Ok, really off-topic by now, so trying to come back to the question of Gandalf and the hobbits... could they indeed be changed?
Groin said it was a type of reactivation of already present knowledge and capability. I agree, that makes sense. But what if they would so to speak deactivate themselves again under a peaceful rule of the house of Telcontar? Did the Scouring then make sense?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

Merely to find out what was so different about the Easterlings and the Southrons in your opinion so as to prevent them from becoming virtually viable alliance partners for Gondor and Rohan.

As an example again to the question of culture, what about the Druedain?

A totally different culture, different to all other groups of men, with probably bigger differences between themselves and the Gondorians then Gondorians and the others mentioned above. Still, they coexisted peacefully with the Men of Brethil, then in Númenor and finally helped out the Rohirrim and the Gondorians.

So did the Ents. And even the Dunlendings repented, and they were of the same race of men as the Rohirrim and the everyday Gondorians. But all of this was at the Nth hour, when Sauron was marching his armies out of Mordor.

Suffice it to say that Tolkien wasn't interested in race in the Rings War. He was more interested in culture, I think, and depicted the Haradrim (who were in close proximity to both the Black Numernoreans and Mordor) and the men of Khand (east of Mordor and difficult for the weakened Gondor to treat with) as men of a more primitive culture and susceptible to the divine influence of Sauron.

The Haradrim and Khandites (sp?) had, as far as we know, no previous experience with getting burned by Sauron like the men of Numenor did.

And yes, conflict was inevitable, so I was not accusing Tolkien of violence in general, at least not in the latter posts, but merely excessive use of violence at times, in situations where I rather see discussion as possibility.

Again, I point out that it's fair to assume, because of his background, that Tolkien had a blueprint of ME and humanity which borrowed heavily from this one. Diplomacy, as you see it, is a new invention. The actions of the men of Gondor were in keeping with men of "similar" times, culture, and governance.

Again, from your idea with the Edain I am getting the idea your are clearly drawing a line between some men and other men. Hence my blunt and offensive question above for which I again apologize.

Apology accepted.

You say it is Tolkien depicting them like that, as better than the rest of mankind. They are indeed special in his writings, but I do not believe the Professor ever intended to draw such a line of separation, I doubt it would be his style or his intention.

Tolkien wrote:

The whole idea is Tolkien himself did not see the Southrons and Easterlings as bad, evil, or really that different than the Edain, and I doubt that he wanted his readers to perceive them that way.

I didn't say "better", you did. However, their friendship with the Eldar did result in long life and an island empire (which they threw away after letting themselves be seduced by Sauron, themselves. Not so dissimilar from the men of Khand and Harad were).

[Gordis]

About alliancs. Indeed the only lasting and successful alliance was that between the Gondorians and the Rohirrim. And Andsigil is right :it worked so well because the people in question were alike, were from the same Three Houses of the Edain. Strange no one has posted this quote yet, where Faramir speaks about the Men of Rohan:

And we love them: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong; they remind us of the youth of Men, as they were in the Elder Days. Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Númenoreans in their beginning not from Hador the Goldenhaired, the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.
'For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of the West, which were Númenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness- LOTR "The Window on the West"

So it was much easier for "High" Men, the Numenoreans, to make alliances with their kin, "Middle" Men, than with some "wild" men like the Dunlendings or the Hillmen of Rhudaur, or the Men of the White Mountains.

And even a marriage of Valacar to Vidumavi was frowned upon by the proud Gondorians as a misalliance with one of "lesser" blood. Eventually it led to Kin-strife.
Tolkien was not racist himself, but I am afraid the Numenoreans, both in Gondor and Arnor, were.
Why did the Hillmen of Rhudaur so universally turn against their Dunedain rulers and supported Angmar? Why did Dunlendings follow Saruman? I suspect Dunedain and Rohirrim racism was a huge factor.

For a good alliance there should be mutual profit; mutual, not one-sided. The Men of the Eoteod needed land. Gondor gave them the land, because Gondor had land to spare. Their ancestors had grabbed a huge portion of the West of Middle Earth, but were too sophisticated to keep their own numbers growing. In return for the land grant, the Gondorians obtained all those lances and swords eager to come to their aid at the first call. And to be sure of the Eorling' loyalty Cirion made them swear a quite terrible oath, in the keeping of Eru and the Valar. That alliance was the smartest political decision the rulers of Gondor had ever made - and it worked.

But could they do the same with say, Harad? The Haradrim were even more numerous then the Eotheod, reproducing fast, and always needed more land. Would Gondor grant them these lands in return for the alliance? And to Variags? And to Easterlings? There was not enough land in Gondor to satisfy everybody. And what was on the borders, the "wild" men managed to take without permission.

Also would the "wild" men, who probably had never heard of the Valar, keep their Oath as faithfully as the Rohirrim did?

And then there was Sauron, who was not that bad a ruler after all, if we look at things objectively. And he had already promised the lands of Gondor to the very same peoples - and sorry, was much more likely to grant them to his followers than the Gondorians themselves. Beat that…

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Tolkien was not racist himself, but I am afraid the Numenoreans, both in Gondor and Arnor, were.
Why did the Hillmen of Rhudaur so universally turn against their Dunedain rulers and supported Angmar? Why did Dunlendings follow Saruman? I suspect Dunedain and Rohirrim racism was a huge factor.

I'm afraid you're right. As to the Haradrim, I think their long animosity against the Numenoreans was not entirely unjustified. It probably started as far back as the Second Age, when the King's Men came to their shores as conquerors exacting heavy tribute, and the suprematist politics of the Gondorian kings in the Third Age certainly didn't make things better. I guess Sauron's Ministery of Propaganda had an easy job exploiting that justified grudge, just like Saruman with the Dunlendings.
Tolkien's own view is quite another matter. I don't get the feeling that he meant to paint Gondor as an ideal kingdom, nor that he wholeheartedly endorsed the way they dealt with the Southrons and Easterlings. The Dunedain were the good guys in so far as they were the only viable opposition to Sauron, but in every other respect they were as fallible as any other humans.

Back to Gandalf and the Hobbits. TM, I agree that once the Northern Kingdom was firmly reestablished, there would be no more need for the Hobbits to exercise their capacity for self-defense, so yes, they'd probably revert to their peaceful way of life. So I see the Scouring more as an afterlude (if that word actually exists) to the War of the Rings than a prelude to the Hobbits taking an active role in the power politics of the Fourth Age.
I'm sure Frodo would have agreed with you wishing for a solution that didn't cost 19 hobbit lives (not to mention the killed ruffians). Would he also have blamed Gandalf for not helping ? I don't think so. Gandalf's job, as I see it, was aiding mortal men (including hobbits) in their fight against the last incarnation of evil on a mythological scale. The Scouring, on the other hand, was just a fight against mere human evil (Saruman being reduced to little more than a mortal villain without his Maiarin powers), so Gandalf was forbidden to meddle by something like the Maiarin equivalent of the Federation Prime Directive.

So, did the Scouring make the Hobbits better? Probably not. Was it deplorable, in so far as it cost lives? Sure. Was it necessary? I'm afraid it was. No clean solution to anything in this Age of Men...