Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
03-18-2008, 02:29 PM | #1 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
A Query...
This may fall into the "unanswerable question" category...
Was there much in the way of commerce that took place between the Free Peoples and the Men of Darkness (I would have put "forces of Darkness" but I think that direct commerce with orcs would probably have been out of the question). I started thinking about this question from the perspective of if Gondor had much in the way of ocean going commerce but decided to open the question a little more than that. Examples that I can readily think of are the intermingling that took place (however grudgingly) between Dunland and Rohan. I also wonder how the peoples of the East learned about the weath of Gondor. Obviously, they had Sauron to spur them on, but might they also have gained some knowledge through trade...? Going back to Gondor's maritime commerce, the name "Corsairs of Umbar" implies preying upon Gondor's ships, but were these ships engaged in international commerce or in internal commerce?
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
03-18-2008, 02:54 PM | #2 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
I assume that goods would have made their way between hostile nations, as we see it today. There may be 'go-betweens' and those that look the other way when goods 'drop off of the truck,' and those that offer 'protection services' for a small piece of the pie. So even if officially there is no trading, surely trading is happening.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
03-18-2008, 03:20 PM | #3 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
Quote:
However, the identities of any middle men and their relationships is part of what I'm so curious about. I could imagine during the time that Gondor controlled Umbar that there would have been surrounding tribes who would have traded with the city and then carried goods further into the hinterland. However, this gets more complex as Gondor's power receded. What sort of middle men could have existed if somebody, for example, wanted to get goods from Gondor to Khand after Gondor's power was restricted to the Porus?
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
03-18-2008, 03:59 PM | #4 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
|
The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers." The example of England is particularly appropriate here, especially once England officially renounced the slave trade but still allowed independent naval entrepreneurs to engage in the trade.
If Aragorn ran into so much trouble so quickly into the 4th Age, the existence of these kinds of freelance entrepreneurs might account for some of his troubles in bringing social order about. Who wants taxes inforced upon them?
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
03-18-2008, 04:28 PM | #5 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
|
I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade. He mentions money nowhere.
Wait, that deservves its own thread if there is not one already about it. Money. edit: wait, it does mention money, sorry. Thinking that made me lose focus in what I was saying (Its late now and I'll probably continue tomorrow)
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
Last edited by Eönwë; 03-18-2008 at 04:31 PM. |
03-18-2008, 05:12 PM | #6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,635
|
Quote:
Hmm... and what of the dwarves? I'm pretty sure that they may have had dealings with the Easterlings at one time.
__________________
I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow |
|
03-18-2008, 05:17 PM | #7 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
|
Well, Groin, I'm sure in the original Legendarium they did, being evil, but after they became a good race, who knows.
They probably did dthough, because everyone likes a bit of gold in the end (or a the very least some sort of metal) and the dwarves were all tooo happy to sell it (except for the gold) seems like I'm contradicting myself. Anyway, what would they want from the Easterlings?
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
|
03-18-2008, 07:24 PM | #8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
|
It is obivios at least some trade was conducted between the "light" and "dark", nations, as there were at least some goods amoung the free people which could only habe been obtained from such trade. For example I seem to recall Tolkeing saying I think it was in the UT version of "tour and his coming to gondlin" that one of the great Gondolin swords (Glamidring I believe) had either a hilt or sheath made of "ruel bone" which Tolkein notes as being the middle earth term for ivory. This ivory would have (probably) had to come from elephants (Mumakul) which unless, they ranged far wider in the first age than in the third, would mean at least some trade with the people of the lands which later became Far Harad even among the elves. I suppose the ivory could of been walrus too but that would mean trade with the Forodwaith who seemed to have little to do with the outside world even in the first age.
Beyond the "look the other way" trade suggested I would imagine that at most border lands there were trading posts and "free cites" places swaring allegiance to nethier The west nor the east, but allowing merchants from either to meet in (comparitive) safety and security. |
03-19-2008, 12:12 AM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
|
In the "Unexpected Party," Bilbo served coffee to the dwarves (or at least, they requested it, knowing it was available.) Coffee does not grow in the same climate as tobacco, and the Shire was famous for growing tobacco. It stands to reason that the coffee was imported from some jungle-like, southern land, where coffee grows easily. Clearly, some kind of trade existed between (at least) the Shire and some of the Sothron lands, from which the coffee must have come. I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.
Certainly, Gondor was founded by seafaring people, and they would have kept that knowledge and skill as long as they could continue to foster it. Did the Prince of Dol Amroth keep a fleet of trading ships all the way into the end of the third age? It seems very likely to me. What else (aside from personal dignity) would keep his Principality at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth. Of course, I'm only guessing. I cannot cite a single quote to back up any of these theories. It all seems pretty logical to me, though.
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
03-19-2008, 01:07 AM | #10 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
Asides from that, I think Tolkien's proverbial anachronisms are to blame, but I am not willing to talk about that here: the coffee was in the Shire and now how to explain it. In the way the coffee is handled in the Shire, I would actually presume that coffee actually was cultivated somewhere in, or at least near the Shire. Had it come all the way from let's say Far Harad, it would have been quite a rare thing. Yet Bilbo does not worry about serving it to a band of Dwarves he hardly even knows. Of course he was a rich hobbit, but no one tells us that the guests were super-excited when they saw such a rare thing as coffee being served. And speaking of it, what about tea? That was even more common, everywhere; and it surely can't grow everywhere as well. Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
||
03-19-2008, 04:22 AM | #11 | |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
|
Now, I find this topic very interesting, possibly because I've lately been planning some things for an RPG and have realised I should probably know about these things...
I agree with more or less everybody on this thread: it is probable that tarde between these nations existed. I can very well see Gondorian nobility using luxury products that have been brought from Harad or far Eastern lands. Ivory, silk, spices maybe even hides of exotic animals. What the Kings or Stewards thought, or whether this trade was official or legal, that I don't know. I can very well see it being banned at least from time to time. As for coffee, it has been discussed in this thread, Coffee!, to a great extent. Maybe some of you will find that interesting. What I said on the thread was Quote:
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
|
03-19-2008, 05:23 AM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Quote:
The "dignity and respect" comes from the elven character of the city and the high ranking knights there. |
|
03-19-2008, 07:22 AM | #13 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
|
Quote:
Was it linen, woven from the flax plants that every good hobbit family grew in its garden? Clothes couldn't rightly be made from cotton, as cotton seems to raise the same difficulty as coffee climate-wise. Could silk be harvested from local silk worms, or would it be imported? Was sheep farming a regular occupation amongst hobbits? Pity the poor hobbit who was allergic to wool. Of what material did Arwen sew her banner?--Esty, I'm sure you can put your finger on this. Trade need not be prompted solely by luxury items, but by any need.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
|
03-19-2008, 08:10 AM | #14 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Quote:
And what of those that were hybrids - citizens or children of both nations (i.e. parents were from Rohan and Dunland)? Where did their loyalties lay? In starving kin or fat King? And what of persons like Bill Ferny? He would have traded his mother or a few hobbits for a genuine White Wizard White Hand-emblazened Helm (protection against organic missiles +4).
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
||
03-19-2008, 09:02 AM | #15 | |||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Elves seem the most likely to be the great weavers of Middle earth...but I don't think there is ever any mention of where they obtained their materials.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|||||
03-19-2008, 09:58 AM | #16 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
|||
03-19-2008, 12:27 PM | #17 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
|
This might be a bit late but about coffee think of the Arkenstone! Maybe thats why everyone loved it. It provided enough UV for photosynthesis. Aha! a new conspiracy theory by me! Anyway, maybe thats why it glowed. Maybe, WOW (I didn't see this coming) it was a Silmaril.
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
|
03-19-2008, 03:52 PM | #18 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
|
Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that. There is an example of the enemy trying to trade the 'good' side. Sauron attempted to buy Rohirrim horses. They turned him down.
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
03-19-2008, 08:32 PM | #19 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
|
Quote:
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
|
03-19-2008, 10:23 PM | #20 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
|
Napoleon outfitted his armies with British made boots. (But they weren't Wellies.)
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
03-20-2008, 09:12 AM | #21 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
And note that the Black Riders, at the gates of the Dwarves and even to Sam's old Gaffer, look to trade gold and money (and Rings!) for information. And they did find the Shire, and so someone did the deal.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
|
03-20-2008, 09:31 AM | #22 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
||
03-20-2008, 09:46 AM | #23 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Also, you always () have to assume that nothing's 100% and that there's always those on the fringe that are following a different directive. And what of the Kinstrife? What trade commenced during that time, and what continued afterwards? Isn't blood thicker than water, and money thicker than both?
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
|
03-20-2008, 01:33 PM | #24 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
Quote:
As far as trading with the Men of Darkness goes...I think it boils down to why people trade at all. It really almost seems instinctive.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
03-24-2008, 11:06 AM | #25 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
|||
03-25-2008, 07:47 AM | #26 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
||
|
|