Lazy Nazgul

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I will be happy to start such a thread, based on LOTR, HOME 6-8, UT and the Reader Companion info. But will it be interesting for the people around here? I know nobody here yet.
Also, my preliminary estimate is that it will give us too little... except of course on Khamul and the WK, and that it will entail some conjecture as well.

Well, but maybe we could track some Nazgul's identity, like "Nazgul #4 was the one who did this and this and this" and connect several events that concerned them... at least somehow... I'd say it's worth a try.

Originally Posted by Gordis

They were probably some of the lesser nazgul: in early March 3019 both the WK and Khamul were probably quite busy preparing their respective fortresses for the coming war. I think Khamul did return to Dol Guldur and led the abortive attack on Lorien on March 15.

Did he? It is true he was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur, but what about all the Nazgul flying around Pelennor and such? He definitely must have left Dol Guldur at least on some call before the Battle of Morannon. But wasn't he flying somewhere around above Pelennor even earlier?

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for flying - it is interesting to note that the nazgul only got their Fell Beasts two months ago at best - maybe even more recently:

It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste.-Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) p.263

Maybe they were training over Dead Marches? Perhaps they were too intent on just staying in the saddle to look around much?

Yes, that's more or less what I meant Though it may seem funny, surely it ain't that easy, even for a Nazgul, to fly on the back of a Fell Beast.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but maybe we could track some Nazgul's identity, like "Nazgul #4 was the one who did this and this and this" and connect several events that concerned them... at least somehow... I'd say it's worth a try.

OK, I shall try to prepare the first post. It will take some time, though.

Did he? It is true he was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur, but what about all the Nazgul flying around Pelennor and such? He definitely must have left Dol Guldur at least on some call before the Battle of Morannon. But wasn't he flying somewhere around above Pelennor even earlier?

Nowhere it is said that all the 9 or at least 8 (as the WK preferred his horse) were flying above the Pelennor. It is likely that Khamul was away on March 15, leading the assault on Lorien. Another proof is that being the Second to the WK, Khamul didn't take command after the Black Captain was slain, but Gothmog did (who I always thought to be another nazgul).

I have already counted the nazgul previously on the Entmoot ... let me see... here:

On March 15 3019, two nazgul (Khamul + another) must have been in Dol-Guldur, as exactly on the same day both Lorien and Thranduil were attacked. Perhaps, even three nazgul were dispatched North, as there were 3 goals: Lorien, Thranduil and Dale-Erebor.

So we have the WK and 5-6 remaining nazgul.

One was in Mordor - just before dawn he came to Cirith Ungol and REMAINED there in charge of the tower.

Another flew to Mordor from Pelennor while hobbits were running from Cirith Ungol:

They started off again. They had not gone far when Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it. We had better keep still for a while.’ Crouched under a great boulder they sat facing back westward and did not speak for some time. Then Frodo breathed a sigh of relief. ‘It’s passed,’ he said. They stood up, and then they both stared in wonder. Away to their left, southward, against a sky that was turning grey, the peaks and high ridges of the great range began to appear dark and black, visible shapes. Light was growing behind them. -The Land of Shadow

Perhaps, this one was dispatched by the Witch-King to Sauron to complain about the unexpected light.

Then comes the third nazgul - again from Pelennor to Mordor:

As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.-The Land of Shadow

This one brought the news of the Witch-King's demise.

So 5-3=2
If Gothmog was one of the two, then only one (or two) nazgul are unaccounted for.
- Maybe he was sent with the news of the coming of Aragorn? Or he simply remained in charge in Minas Morgul? Or maybe he stayed with Sauron?
_____

As for the Black Gate battle, there were all the remaining 8 present, thus including Khamul.

Though it may seem funny, surely it ain't that easy, even for a Nazgul, to fly on the back of a Fell Beast.

And their training area was above the Dead Marches. It is much nicer to plummet down onto the slime of the Marches instead of the hard rocks of Gorgoroth.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Another proof is that being the Second to the WK, Khamul didn't take command after the Black Captain was slain, but Gothmog did (who I always thought to be another nazgul).

Me not Anyway, that's a matter of opinion; but I think for the purposes of this we cannot take it as proof for Khamul's absence, as we can't say for sure what Gothmog was. Btw I thought if you have something to say on this subject, there were several threads concerning Gothmog back then, I remember for example this one (and I believe there's a link to another one in it).

Originally Posted by Gordis

On March 15 3019, two nazgul (Khamul + another) must have been in Dol-Guldur, as exactly on the same day both Lorien and Thranduil were attacked. Perhaps, even three nazgul were dispatched North, as there were 3 goals: Lorien, Thranduil and Dale-Erebor.

Hm, but where do you take support for the presupposition that the nazgul were leading any of these battles? For example concerning myself, this is the first time I encountered such an idea, before it did not even cross my mind. And I mean evidence, not just your own theory.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And their training area was above the Dead Marches. It is much nicer to plummet down onto the slime of the Marches instead of the hard rocks of Gorgoroth.

Well, not sure... thinking about their aversion to water, maybe the hard rocks would've been preferable...

[Gordis]

I will look on the Gothmog threads, thanks.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hm, but where do you take support for the presupposition that the nazgul were leading any of these battles? For example concerning myself, this is the first time I encountered such an idea, before it did not even cross my mind. And I mean evidence, not just your own theory.

No strict evidence, only that there is not a single mention of ALL the nazgul at the Pelennor.
The rest is only conjecture: someone had to lead the assault on Lorien - why not the most obvious one, Khamul? - especially considering that with his Fell Beast he could return to Mordor in matter of hours. One more "shrieker" above Minas Tirith, one less, doesn't make much difference, but to have Khamul leading the host of Dol Guldur is a big asset.

Well, not sure... thinking about their aversion to water, maybe the hard rocks would've been preferable...

I always read it as aversion to flowing water, not the mire water or bathtub water. Something to do with Ulmo's power, I believe.

I disagree to the idea that the Ring must emit a sort of "signal." We find apparent in The Lord of the Rings that there are seemingly two worlds - you might even label them "physical" and "spiritual." The Nazgûl evidently have power in this second realm, as do the High Elves and the Istari. Aragorn II had this power too - not entirely physical, but spiritual as well. We find in the Reader's Companion that the Dûnedain sent for him because he was the only one who successfully might resist the Nazgûl.

We also learn from the texts that the Ring seems to have a will of its own. It has the ability to put its wearer one foot - eventually almost fully - into the spiritual realm. It itself seems to have power, but not of the kind effective in the physical. It could touch souls and minds. I think the whole idea of the Nazgûl sensing the Ring's presence is because of the magnitude of its presence in the spiritual realm. Of course if the Ring wants to go back to its master, but is bound to the spiritual realm in a physical object, it might try and contact its master's servants through the same realm.

If this is obvious to everyone already, just ignore me, but I'm not up on the current theories moving across the Downs.

Now, coming back to the main question of why Khamûl could not sense the Ring's presence in the darkness and from such short a distance, I would say he merely wasn't paying attention. He'd been through a lot - fighting Dûnedain, confronting Saruman, getting ordered here and there by the Witch-king and entrusted in finding the Ring. Khamûl might only be able to sense the Ring if he had been paying attention.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

No strict evidence, only that there is not a single mention of ALL the nazgul at the Pelennor.

And is there a mention they were not all? You know, this is all 50-50.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The rest is only conjecture: someone had to lead the assault on Lorien - why not the most obvious one, Khamul? - especially considering that with his Fell Beast he could return to Mordor in matter of hours. One more "shrieker" above Minas Tirith, one less, doesn't make much difference, but to have Khamul leading the host of Dol Guldur is a big asset.

More likely now, I would presume that someone else led the assaults on Lórien (remember there wasn't only one!) and that Khamul, or another Nazgul for that matter, would carry messages about the war to Mordor. That's a much better way of using the (Winged) Nazgul's abilities.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I always read it as aversion to flowing water, not the mire water or bathtub water. Something to do with Ulmo's power, I believe.

I don't think so. Not that I would really think bathtub water or the marshes to be significant in this way to the Nazgul, but I am referring to Ulmo's power. It's just a mild correction - that cannot be "direct" power of Ulmo; as Ulmo says even to Tuor in the First Age that his power is withdrawing from the rivers of Beleriand, and also remember Valar laid down their rulership of Arda with the fall of Númenor. Yet we know from Ainulindalë about water, that it contained the strongest "echoes" of the Music. So: Ulmo's power, yes, but not "direct", rather some "immanent" power.

Originally Posted by Narcolindo

Now, coming back to the main question of why Khamûl could not sense the Ring's presence in the darkness and from such short a distance, I would say he merely wasn't paying attention. He'd been through a lot - fighting Dûnedain, confronting Saruman, getting ordered here and there by the Witch-king and entrusted in finding the Ring. Khamûl might only be able to sense the Ring if he had been paying attention.

I cannot agree with this one - such explanation does not suffice, in my opinion. Khamul's priority was to find the Ring, and surely he didn't think of anything else from the moment he left Mordor, or from the moment he entered the Shire. "He wasn't paying attention" is very bad excuse. No, if anything, I'd say "because of the forest he didn't see the trees", so to say - I mean, maybe he was so concentrated on collecting information from some Gaffers and other people (especially after he learned Mr. Baggins is away) that he did not concentrate on sensing the Ring's presence.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Narcolindo

It could touch souls and minds. I think the whole idea of the Nazgûl sensing the Ring's presence is because of the magnitude of its presence in the spiritual realm. Of course if the Ring wants to go back to its master, but is bound to the spiritual realm in a physical object, it might try and contact its master's servants through the same realm.

"To touch souls and minds" - That's what I call "emitting the signal". No, I didn't mean supersonic beeps, I meant osanwe contact. So, I don't see any contradiction in our ideas.
But maybe you think that the Ring tried to touch souls and minds - to make manifest its presence intermittently? It is theoretically possible, but then some cases are hard to explain. For instance how come Gandalf the Maia, wielder of one of the Three failed to recognize this presence?

We find in the Reader's Companion that the Dûnedain sent for him because he was the only one who successfully might resist the Nazgûl.

I am not aware of this, though I have read the RC. Can you post the quote, please?

And, as Legate, I don't think Khamul was not paying attention. He should have had - after all, he was chosen to go to Hobbitton because of his sensitivity to the Ring.

Legate: More likely now, I would presume that someone else led the assaults on Lórien (remember there wasn't only one!) and that Khamul, or another Nazgul for that matter, would carry messages about the war to Mordor. That's a much better way of using the (Winged) Nazgul's abilities.

The best way was to send him lead the assault and when it failed, make him come to report about it in person.

Legate: So: Ulmo's power, yes, but not "direct", rather some "immanent" power.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But maybe you think that the Ring tried to touch souls and minds - to make manifest its presence intermittently? It is theoretically possible, but then some cases are hard to explain. For instance how come Gandalf the Maia, wielder of one of the Three failed to recognize this presence?

Quite true, I hadn't thought of that. It may be that the Ring can "disguise" it's power, but that is entirely theoretical.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am not aware of this, though I have read the RC. Can you post the quote, please?

Sorry, I don't have the RC. But I'm sure it's in there, when the Nazgûl are trying to enter the Shire. The Witch-king drives the Dûnedain from the ford at night and then pursues with some of the wraiths while the others enter the Shire to search for the Ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Narcolindo

Sorry, I don't have the RC. But I'm sure it's in there, when the Nazgûl are trying to enter the Shire. The Witch-king drives the Dûnedain from the ford at night and then pursues with some of the wraiths while the others enter the Shire to search for the Ring.

That's even in the UT, but nothing implies that Aragorn had power in the Wraith-world. I believe it was only because of Aragorn's "natural" strength, leadership and other qualities why the Rangers sent for him. The encounter at Bruinen also does not prove anything about this matter - Frodo sees Glorfindel as the shining figure in the wraith-world, but no trace of Aragorn.

[Gordis]

You must have referred to this quote then:

[The nazgul]came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dunedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them. But he was away to the north, upon the East Road near Bree; and the hearts even of the Dunedain misgave them.

Nothing is said that they sent for Aragorn, instead it is told that his presence likely wouldn't have made much difference.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There exists at Marquette a full accounting of the Nazguls' movements from the attack on Osgiliath in June until the defeat at the Fords- it is this (with the Nazgul identified by letters A through I) which is excerpted in Unfinished Tales, and also in the Reader's companion (alas, with the identifying letters edited out). I might be able to see this published in full some day.

Unfortunately Tolkien made no such accounting for the War of the Ring- his notes refer to "a Nazgul," ''four Nazgul;" but aside from the WK none is identified, nor does he tell us if, for example, Khamul or some other was present for the attacks in the North.

[Gordis]

They edited out the letters in the texts published in RC? WHY???

I thought there should have been the letters for the individual nazgul - as in the drafts in HOME 7 the letters are there all right. Unfortunately, there are several versions - but not the final one.

Is their really any hope that the HUNT FOR THE RING will be published in full? *excited*