Valar reproduction

[cesar.ewok]

I was thinking, would it be possible that two Valar dressed in hröar could bear a child? What would be born? An Elf?

And in this account from HoMe X: "Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (kilaling), and they would dwindle in force."

Who were the Maiar-Orcs practising embodied procreating with? Themselves?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, the physical form 'worn' by an Ainu was not a hroa, but a -------- (Tolkien gives it a specific name, but I forget). It's qualitatively different from the hroar of Incarnates. The signal exception was the Istari, who indeed by some means known only in Valinor, were ealar incarnate in hroar as if they were Eruhini.

Tolkien makes it clear, I believe in the same essay quoted, that Melian's bearing a child was an extraordinary and singular case, permitted because Luthien was to be part of the Plan (or the Music). Although for a long time Tolkien envisioned "Children of the Valar" (the later Maiar), he abandoned that idea.

As for Maia-orcs: compare the happy, healthy Ungoliant-Shelob family!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Tolkien makes it clear, I believe in the same essay quoted, that Melian's bearing a child was an extraordinary and singular case, permitted because Luthien was to be part of the Plan (or the Music). Although for a long time Tolkien envisioned "Children of the Valar" (the later Maiar), he abandoned that idea.

My reading of the story of Lúthien and Beren implies that Morgoth considered doing more with the She-Elf than just hearing her sing. Was this the first time that Morgoth had such thoughts, or are the orcs his creation via elves in more than one sense?

Ick!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In some versions, Melkor 'violates' the Sun-Maia Arien.....

[cesar.ewok]

Hi, William.

The quenya name of the 'natural' body they used is fana (this body couldn't procreate). But, if they're willing, they can incarnate themselves in hröar, right? And shouldn't the body at least be able to procreate (once they'd be in the same condition and body of Elves, Men, kelvar...)?

[Lalwendë]

I'd presume that in order to breed, any of the Ainur would surely have to take the form of one of the species 'allowed' by Eru as he did not allow creation of new species, Morgoth could only corrupt what already existed, for example. So Melian took the form of an Elf in order to produce a child.

The idea that Orcs were originally created by lesser Maiar taking on physical form is an interesting one...would that logically equate to creating a new species or not though? Would that be allowable?

[alatar]

Weren't orcs made from elves? I've already provided one way to explain this phrase; another may be that, due to constraints by Eru in that the Maia could only take approved forms, the evil Maia circumvent this by taking the actual captured elf bodies and wearing them like wetsuits, then procreating in the standard physical world method.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Weren't orcs made from elves? I've already provided one way to explain this phrase; another may be that, due to constraints by Eru in that the Maia could only take approved forms, the evil Maia circumvent this by taking the actual captured elf bodies and wearing them like wetsuits, then procreating in the standard physical world method.

That would depend on how quickly an Elf body deteriorated though, once dead. I know there is something specific about this in HoME X...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That would depend on how quickly an Elf body deteriorated though, once dead. I know there is something specific about this in HoME X...

Not to get graphic, but what it it only took a little bit of time to impregnate an elf with the evil-maian taint, and then the body could be discarded as the damage is done.

Plus there sure were a lot of elves back in those days, and so with a properly stocked closet, you could make it through most social occasions.

"Does moriquendi make me look fat?"

[Lalwendë]

Meh!

I get you!

But the question remains, would Orcs be a distinct species? Would they then just be Maiar/Elves or what? We know they could not be a new species, and we have to presume they did eventually breed/reproduce independently given all the evidence (dispersed populations, many body types etc), but were they ever more than simply ugly half-breed Elves?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But the question remains, would Orcs be a distinct species? Would they then just be Maiar/Elves or what? We know they could not be a new species, and we have to presume they did eventually breed/reproduce independently given all the evidence (dispersed populations, many body types etc), but were they ever more than simply ugly half-breed Elves?

I can't see torturing elves into becoming orcs, and so there's got to be something more. Once you get a small population of 'something more,' then you can let things take their course.

By the by, are there orc females, and if the orcs come from elvish stock, what gives them (the orcs) the significantly higher birth rate as compared to the elves? Sure, elves read lots of poetry, which you'd think would be good for romance (as indicated by the greeting card industry), but then again, maybe they're too busy writing it, or thinking about writing it, to actually go out on a date.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But, if they're willing, they can incarnate themselves in hröar, right? And shouldn't the body at least be able to procreate (once they'd be in the same condition and body of Elves, Men, kelvar...)?

Not really. As far as I know, only the Valar (with Eru's express permission) could or did ever act to incarnate spirits of their own kind (ealar) into hroar. It's an essential part of Tolkienian metaphysics that fea and hroa are made for one another, and their separation is unnatural and a result of the Marring.

Orcs: this was a problem Tolkien never satisfactorily worked out. His later thought seems to have been that Orcs were bred from Men, not Elves, under the influence (but not parentage) of "Orc-maiar", who were the original 'shadows and demons' of Cuivienen. These should be considered as akin to the Balrogs, but of much, much lower stature and power- and perhaps seduced by Melkor in Arda, like Sauron, rather than before Creation as the Balrogs were. But of course Tolkien was really just 'thinking with the pen' and didn't develop the idea very far. It is clear though that he never considered them as being biological progenitors of the mortal Orcs.

One would assume that these Orc-maiar had all been destroyed by the end of the War of Wrath- and, having been (physically) killed, were no more capable of bodily 'restoration' than Saruman or Sauron after their final falls.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

I can't see torturing elves into becoming orcs, and so there's got to be something more. Once you get a small population of 'something more,' then you can let things take their course.

By the by, are there orc females, and if the orcs come from elvish stock, what gives them (the orcs) the significantly higher birth rate as compared to the elves? Sure, elves read lots of poetry, which you'd think would be good for romance (as indicated by the greeting card industry), but then again, maybe they're too busy writing it, or thinking about writing it, to actually go out on a date.

I think there just have to be female Orcs as the alternatives are just too outlandish. In The Science of Middle-earth you'll find a number of mad ideas but I don't much like any of them - things like parthenogenesis, 'Queen' Orcs (like Bees) or that all the Orcs were actually female and bred without males. Why we have to deny the existence of female Orcs having Orc babies I think says a lot about us as readers feeling uncomfortable with the idea of 'nasty, evil Orcs' having cute lil Orc babes. But it's the most sensible solution that they bred in the normal way!

Would Orcs necessarily have a higher birth rate anyway? Yes, they could have that, especially as the idea of female Orcs being encouraged to breed like rabbits fits in with the idea of 'the machine' (as seen in the Nazi and Ceaucescu regimes). But so long as we don't know exactly where Orcs came from and if the creation of them as a race had essentially changed them as one of the original two Eru created species, we can't fix on what happened when an Orc died really, which leaves avenues to explore...If they were Elves and remained in terms of species as Elves then surely they would live and die in the manner of Elves? So, some form of re-embodiment then? Did they go to the actual Halls of Mandos? Did they go to a Morgoth-ian equivalent?

[obloquy]

Tolkien may contradict himself on this point somewhere, but in the end there is no fundamental difference in the natures of Melian and the Valar: both are ealar by nature. Melian's example provides all the proof necessary that the Valar could reproduce if they took physical shape. It is not clear that this act required incarnation, nor is it clear that this act immediately resulted in incarnation. What we do know, however, is that this and other actions that are reserved for--and necessary to--the Incarnates had a "solidifying" effect on the relationship between the physical raiment and the embodied eala, eventually resulting in full incarnation. At this point they became subject to the maintenance concerns of the Incarnates, and could also be slain--the permanence of which depended on certain conditions. Presumably they would also deteriorate over time, though probably not at a more rapid rate than the Eldar, whose "enormously long lives" made them virtually immortal (in terms of natural death).

Reproduction by the Valar perhaps violated their axani (in fact, this may be explicitly stated to be so, I simply can't recall). Melkor is said to be incapable of begetting offspring despite being incarnate, but not because of the nature of the Valar. It is simply stated, for what it's worth, that "evil itself is barren." Tolkien may have been mistaken on this point, but I do not remember him providing any argument to support the claim. After all, Balrogs were evil (though perhaps not Evil Itself), and they became incarnate* somehow, and I doubt it was by overeating. Perhaps Tolkien's "begetting" includes all intercourse, whether or not it results in progeny.

*It is not, in fact, known definitively that Balrogs were incarnate. A convincing case can be (and has been) made that they were, and I don't know of any serious attempt to argue that they were not. The former fits far better than the latter.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think there just have to be female Orcs as the alternatives are just too outlandish. In The Science of Middle-earth you'll find a number of mad ideas but I don't much like any of them - things like parthenogenesis, 'Queen' Orcs (like Bees) or that all the Orcs were actually female and bred without males. Why we have to deny the existence of female Orcs having Orc babies I think says a lot about us as readers feeling uncomfortable with the idea of 'nasty, evil Orcs' having cute lil Orc babes. But it's the most sensible solution that they bred in the normal way!

Tolkien was explicit that Orcs reproduced 'after the fashion of the Children of Iluvatar'- in other words, sexually.

If one worries too much about some idyllic 'Leave it to Beavorc' family life in the maggot-holes of Udun, one I suppose could postulate that all Orc mating was carried out by rape, and the offspring abandoned to fend for themselves (which would actually explain a lot).

[Lalwendë]

I said there was something about the deterioration of Elf corpses in HoME X and there is, plus some more of interest.

...the body, deserted by the spirit was dissolved. This happened swiftly in Middle-earth. In Aman only was there no decay.

And the text further states that of course an Elf would only die due to great violence or grief; in the former case, the body would be a wreck and in the latter, the dead Elf would usually not be keen to enter that body (though Miriel eventually did, but then her body was not corrupted as she died of grief in Aman). Course, in Middle-earth, if those in the service of Morgoth and Sauron got to the corpse before it was utterly useless then what would stop such evil beings from making use of it?

It seems the Dark Lords made use of those Elves who ended up Houseless or Unbodied as some of the text hints at dark dealings of necromancy:

one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it not be wrested from its rightful inhabitant. Or the houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

and

the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one's own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron, his servant.

To me, this all suggests a likely source for Orcs, and maybe for other creatures too. The refusal of the summons to Mandos was quite a serious infraction in terms of the nature of an Elf, and it was quite a dangerous thing to do, once Houseless as it made Elves very vulnerable to corruption - both as they had not got the protection of a body and because without one, they could not interact properly with other Elves. HoME tells us that some of the more benign Houseless 'haunted' places they had known and became rather like 'earth spirits', inhabiting trees and rocks etc, but it seems others, either through temptation or will, went down more sinister routes. Incidentally, this also gives us some justification for those in Middle-earth who did not entirely trust the Elves, as there must have been some who 'possessed' others.

So, maybe Orcs came about by Morgoth making use of the Houseless, giving them new forms either from fallen Elf corpses (in many forms of decomposition probably!) or who knows what Dr Frankenstein abominations...

And then having the bodies, what was to stop them reproducing in the normal way?