THIS exists in M-E?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If I asked you if you could name me any technically advanced things in Middle-Earth, and you stopped and thought for a second, you will surely come upon something. And this is what I would like to debate in this thread. (I don't know if this has been debated before, it's quite hard to find something like that, but I think it wasn't.)

So, you can just stop for a few seconds and try to remember something from LotR which speaks about (or implies) existence of a thing we wouldn't expect in Middle-Earth from its "medieval" setting, but which, indeed, is there. We might start a discussion about it here - where do you think it came from, who invented it, for what purpose etc.

However, I would like to start now with pointing out especially one thing, which is not shown explicitely in the text, it is a very very modern thing, a thing which would be probably among the last you would've expected in Middle-Earth. But the text, written by honorable Mr. Baggins himself, clearly indicates that such a thing did exist in Middle-Earth and was known to the Hobbits (which might come from the knowledge given by Elves or whoever else). And don't think I picked it up from the Hobbit or some other source which is, indeed, by many considered to be (for whatever reason) something of a less value or even "non-canonical". But the thing I would like to mention now does not allow any doubts about being in-canon, because it comes from the very heart of canon which no one (I hope) will put to doubts: Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring. And it is the first one I would like to discuss, because... it's really quite, you know, discussion-provoking. Now you ask what is this controversial thing, which, according to the Red Book of Westmarch, indeed existed in Middle-Earth?

It is an express train.

Hey, indeed! I am not joking. Fellowship of the Ring, chapter 1 "A Long Expected Party": "The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."

It's undeniable. Something lead Frodo to liken the dragon (firework) to an express train. Right? This means Frodo must have known express trains. Right? Now we have to know only from where. It might be that he didn't have the experience with express trains himself: he might have just heard about them and found this an adequate thing to liken to the dragon (although, the fact that he uses it this way seems to imply that he had own experience with the effects an express train produces). Which, also, implies that there must have been quite well knowledge about the subject among the readers to whom the Red Book was intended (hobbits, mainly?), enough for the author to expect them that they will know what an express train is when they read it. Since we are not told anywhere else in the Red Book about express trains, we wouldn't expect the knowledge coming from here (though the RB was surely an ultimate source of knowledge at least among the earlier generations of post-war hobbits).

So, the starting points on this subject are:

1. Frodo knew what an express train is (likely from personal experience).
2. The intended readers (i.e. hobbits) were supposed to have the knowledge of express trains as well (also most likely from personal experience).

Now on to possible conclusions. Thus far, I'd like to present several theories, which may be later upgraded and to which I would like you to react, or even come up with different ones.
Remember please, this is a serious conversation, really, and I want to come to a serious conclusion on the matter. So, be serious, so am I.

Theory#1
There was a railway in the Shire.
This theory has several pros, mainly:

• It explains well the knowledge of the Hobbits about what an express train is,
• it seems logical in the view that the hobbits will still have the knowledge of the subject even after several generations, see below

Against this theory could speak several points, namely:

• As far as we know, there is no railway on the map of the Shire,
• as well as it is not mentioned anywhere in the books. One would suppose that e.g. for such a wealthy hobbit as Mr. Baggins was, it would be no problem to send his possessions from Bag End to Crickhollow by the railway (at least to the Bridge, one could presume that a railway will most likely go with the Eastern Road. Though this counter-argument is not as strong since we can't know for sure where the railway was).
• We know hobbits didn't did not understand or like machines more complicated than a forge-bellows, a water-mill, or a hand-loom (FotR, Prologue).

Especially the last speaks very much against relevance of this theory. Against the other counter-arguments, there is for example the possibility that since we are not shown the map of western Shire, a railway could as well exist just there, which would elliminate both the first and the second counter-argument. However, not as well with the third one.

Theory#2
There wasn't a railway in the Shire, but some other kin in contact with the hobbits (most logically the Blue Mountain Dwarves) possessed it. This theory is better in something than the first one, though in some other things it has critical flaws. Pros:

• If it were the Dwarves who had it, the railway could run underground in most part so it wouldn't have to be included on maps in general
• we know that Dwarves liked to make things like that, and we even know (from the Hobbit) that the Dwarves actually mined coal - which is surely a good fuel for the (steam) trains. Such a thing will surely come handy to transport things from the mines to the surface;
• the hobbits could have good knowledge about the trains from the Dwarven travelers.

Cons:

• The Dwarves are generally quite secretive folk, so why would they tell the Hobbits? And, why would the Hobbits want to listen about such a "mechanical" thing? (the same problem as #1) Frodo, well, maybe - but others?
• Even if the hobbits knew, the knowledge will probably soon be forgotten after several generations (like many things in the hobbit community).
• The hobbits, including Frodo, will probably never see the train for themselves. Frodo, as far as we know, was only in one Dwarven city: Moria, and that was deserted and we have been told of no rail in it.

Theory#3
Frodo knew the train from his personal experience on the quest, or heard about it in lands far away. This theory is the best from the logical point of view in my opinion, though it still has some holes in it.
Pros:

• In the lands far away, train could have existed (in Mordor, for example? Or in Rhun or Harad and Frodo just heard about it?). This will explain very well why the train is not mentioned anywhere else.
• It will explain why no kin uses the train (being it surely a good means of transport). The knowledge is hidden among savage people from distant lands.

Cons:

• The readers (hobbits) wouldn't know what a train is, only from Frodo's own (possibly other) tales (though it might have such an impact on them - probably fearful - that they'll remember it and e.g. scare their children "if you are naughty, the train will come for you", so the idea of the train stays in the memory of the kin - even maybe in a slightly swayed meaning, which would still - and maybe even more - fit with the usage of the comparation to a dragon. In hobbit mythology, the two things might eventually become one).

So, that's for the start - my three starting theories. I would like to hear if any of you support any of these theories, or add some own thoughts to them, or even have completely different theories about what it was like. I'm welcoming any constructive thoughts, or even just opinions on the matter.

[Son of Númenor]

Frodo isn't the narrator, Tolkien is, so it cannot be assumed Frodo had seen or knew anything about trains. And despite the narrative ploy of author as hobbit-historian, Tolkien's intended audience was modern humans. He started writing LotR as a sequel to the Hobbit, so it's not surpring that he would carry on with the tone of his first book and reference things that young children could relate to.

At least there is nothing in the Rivendell chapters about Aragorn being faster than speeding bullet.

[davem]

Poor Bilbo couldn't bear it any longer. At may never return he began to feel a shriek coming up inside, and very soon it burst out like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel 'An Unexpected Party' The Hobbit

Interestingly both the train/engine references appear in the first chapter of each book. I would have to agree with SoN, though. Clearly this is the translator speaking, not the 'author' (ie Bilbo/Frodo). Rateliff makes the point that TH (& by extention The New Hobbit, at least in the beginning) was written with a specific audience in mind. we know that the Tolkien boys loved trains - both real (CT's reminiscence of sitting on the White Horse Hill with his father, watching a train steam past in the valley. CT loved it, but says his father felt it to be 'an intrusion' ) & toy (cf the references to Hornby train sets in the Father Christmas Letters).

I think this is the most logical explanation. Tolkien was using references that would appeal to his audience. Rateliff also makes the point about the prevalence of bears in Tolkien's works (TH, FCL, Mr Bliss) & the fact that all his children had teddy bears (Priscilla at one point owning 60 of them). Hence, bears appear in his stories.

Love the idea though....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gentlemen (especially SoN), this was exactly what I didn't want to see in this topic. Everyone can just sweep interesting topic off of the table like this. But I am placing serious statement in front of you, evidence from the translation of the Red Book of Westmarch, and you cannot deny the train is mentioned there. So I'm expecting topic-advancing entries further.

However, I have to say I am very grateful of davem's find of the quote from the Hobbit, since it really nicely contributes to the discussion. The discovery of the entry implies that not just Frodo, but even Bilbo - the author of the Hobbit's tale - knew the train. This means already Bilbo was writing his book with knowledge of this, which slightly undermines hypothesis #3.

Another valuable bit of information is that we learn the train was actually riding through some tunnel. So, Bilbo must have had experience with - or knowledge about - a train riding through a tunnel. Wherever the railway in Middle-Earth was situated, it must have been probably in a place where high hills or mountains were present as a terrain feature. I would dare to say that this indeed speaks much for the theory #2, also because as far as we know Dwarves were the ones to delve tunnels (the train couldn't just go through some sort of natural cave). The only problem would be, how the hobbits learned about it?

[Boromir88]

Gentlemen (especially SoN), this was exactly what I didn't want to see in this topic. Everyone can just sweep interesting topic off of the table like this.~Legate

I'm going to agree with SoN on this one. I wouldn't call it 'sweeping an interesting topic' under the table, I would say in this particular instance with the 'express train' you are looking too far into the quote and overthinking it. (Just my opinion though ).

For whatever reason it was technological advancement in Middle-earth is pretty much stagnant compared to our own technological advancements. Centuries and whole millenias pass by in Tolkien's story, yet there is very little advancement in technology. For instance, chainmail never progressed to plate mail (all that we see is Imrahil has 'metal vambrances'). There are no crossbows...etc. Besides the appearance of gunpowder (in Gandalf's fireworks and Saruman's 'bombs') advancement in technology (in Middle-earth) is virtually stagnant.

Tolkien was very specific about what he wanted in his story...he endlessly criticized Zimmerman in Letter 210 about adding things in his story that did not belong (tomatoes in the Shire, glass windows...and so on), and for whatever reason kept advancement in technology to pretty much nil.

So, as far as an express train is concerned, I agree with davem and SoN, and the idea that there was an express train somewhere in Middle-earth is just a 'bridge too far' and you're looking too far into things. As the quotes are not literal but figuritive to set up imagery. Just as there are times (in The Lord of the Rings and his other stories) when Tolkien is having his characters 'speak' to us, there are times when the author is speaking to us. If Frodo (or Bilbo) said such and such was like an 'express train' than I can see there being some argument, but the bottom line is both quotes appear in the narration of the author, not the characters.

With that being said, that doesn't mean this discussion has to end, because there are things that exist in Middle-earth that appear in two very different places at different times in our world. For some examples, how about clocks in Middle-earth? Or tea-time? (and doing a search you can find great threads on both) For those are both quite odd and out of place. Middle-earth was not set at one specific period of time according to our own 'real history.' It is a mesh, a mixing pot, of numerous items, things, cultural beliefs...etc which appear at varying times in our history. And Tolkien was quite specific about what belonged in Middle-earth, and what didn't, and he virtually kept advancement in Middle-earth stagnant.

I just think this example of the express train is being read into a bit too much. That doesn't mean this can't be (and isn't already) an interesting thread.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What an interesting topic, Legate! You are certainly entitled to take seriously any anachronisms metioned in the books on the basis of Tolkien's own "translator conceit" and Red Book concept. After all, though he made a number of corrections and revisions in later editions, he chose to leave such references in the stories! Isn't it interesting that we have more difficulty accepting an express train in the context of Middle-earth than talking dragons?!

Under this assumption, I am inclined to agree with your idea that such inventions came from the Dwarves. [I have explored that idea with another anachronism, Bilbo's clock, in my fan fiction, but won't interrupt this train of thought with a new one right now. (Pun unintentional but appropriate!)] The underground mining would have been an excellent and fairly secret location, and as you said, the coal as a fuel source was there, as well as metals for tracks.

How did the Hobbits get to know about it? Well, dwarves travelled through the Shire frequently - and Bree, for that matter! - on their way to and from the Blue Mountains, so some Hobbits will have traded with them and perhaps gotten to know them more closely. I would imagine that none of them ever experienced a train personally, but heard about them and spread the word to other Hobbits as a legend. It could well have been that they were the bogeymen for little Hobbit children, as you said!

I think that the cons are too strong to have allowed for a train in the Shire, and I doubt that there would have been any in enemy lands, as the Fellowship travels through those countries, with their route being documented quite extensively. But who knows what tunnels could have been hidden in Moria and other Dwarven fasts?!

[The Saucepan Man]

If one were to seek to explain the train references in a manner consistent with the 'Translator's Conceit', then one might speculate that this was a phrase inserted by the 'translator' of the Red Book of Westmarch in place of a phrase which would have no meaning to his audience, or alternatively that it was an example of 'translator's' licence.

I am not sure that this fully explains all the anachronistic references, however, particularly those included in The Hobbit and the early chapters of LotR set in The Shire. The Shire is portrayed in a manner redolent of English Edwardian society and is in many ways at odds with the medieval feel of the remainder of Middle-earth (or at least the Mannish domains). Hence, we have mantle clocks, umbrellas, pocket handkerchiefs, waistcoats and even footballs (the latter three, I suppose, not being entirely out of place in a medieval setting), and probably others that I have overlooked. It might also (and indeed has been) argued that tobacco, potatos and coffee are also misplaced in a Western Middle-earth supposedly modelled on Western Europe (although this could be explained in a number of ways). There is a thread around here devoted to anachronisms, and another devoted to coffee and other New World imports - I will see if I can root them out.

If, on the other hand, there were actually express trains existing within Third Age Middle-earth, I would look either to the Dwarves or the Dark Lord (perhaps developed from the flying mechanical war-engines that Morgoth empoyed in the assault on Gondolin).

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, it seems that the anachronism thread that I had in mind no longer exists. But here are some others that I found which discuss this issue:

Hobbiton Anachronisms, or, Were the Hobbits ahead of their Time?

Modern World references in Middle-Earth

And here's the ever delightful ...

Coffee!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I must concede that the orcs/goblins are a possibility. Here's a passage from The Hobbit that applies to their mechanical skills:

They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble...
It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them...

(Over Hill and Under Hill)

[Boromir88]

Isn't it interesting that we have more difficulty accepting an express train in the context of Middle-earth than talking dragons?!~Esty

Maybe because readers expect to encounter talking dragons, giant spiders, and the 'ancient' unknown creatures in a fantasy story. But not express trains in a world that has yet to develop full plate armor, or firearms, or motor vehicles . But as has been shown there are anachronisms throughout Tolkien's story.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

One thing just for start to prevent some confusion, which, it seems, has risen among some people here. I thought it is not necessary to point it out, but maybe for preventing further confussion it's better. Of course I am aware of the fact Tolkien was the one who inserted the image of the express train there, but as Esty said, he presented LotR as a translation from the original. And this whole thread is, of course, built on this premise. He indeed used the word, with whatever intention, but it surely affects the world of Middle-Earth. Or said another way, you might say this topic assumes that LotR is indeed supposed to be a verified translation of the Red Book of Westmarch, written by honorable Mr.Baggins & co., and thus, if the image of a train is indeed there, it fits with Middle-Earth.

Originally Posted by SpM

If one were to seek to explain the train references in a manner consistent with the 'Translator's Conceit', then one might speculate that this was a phrase inserted by the 'translator' of the Red Book of Westmarch in place of a phrase which would have no meaning to his audience, or alternatively that it was an example of 'translator's' licence.

Good point. It also came to my mind originally, however in that case we would necessarily come up to a question what expression then was supposed to be used in the original. Because this would imply that Tolkien used the expression in exchange for some other expression which was not understandable at all for modern reader - and this, given the way we are presented even things totally alien to us, seems rather strange. On other places in LotR, even things totally alien to us are described just as they are, so why change it here? Or in other words, as Esty said very nicely: Isn't it interesting that we have more difficulty accepting an express train in the context of Middle-earth than talking dragons?!

Anyway, back on the railway, so to say. If we agree with the railway really existing somewhere in Middle-Earth, it really looks like either the Dwarves could have been behind it, or there is, indeed, the idea of it being a "machine of the Enemy". The latter might also explain the problem of the train being such a significant image in the hobbits' mind, and it will probably really mean that the train had became a bogeyman (quite rightfully, in this case) for the hobbits.

Originally Posted by Esty

I must concede that the orcs/goblins are a possibility.

Indeed! However, I doubt it would have been just orcs, because unless an old railway lead in Redhorn Gate when the hobbits passed through it from the Anduin Vales (or unless Golfimbul arrived with a train to face Bullroarer ), I can't imagine where would the hobbits come in contact with it (or with a rumor of it). If the train had indeed been a work of the Enemy, then I suggest looking for its roots in Morgoth's devices (I think not Sauron's, because we have no word of it being used in Mordor, and I believe that if Sauron could, he would surely use such a valuable device). After all, the image of a train could fit quite nicely with the environment of the pits of Angband. Maybe the knowledge of the making of this menace passed away in coming ages.

When we look at it, it is quite logical. Most of the real "inventions" were made by (or with the help of) more powerful beings (Maiar, ev. in this case it could be even Vala). As Boro said here:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Besides the appearance of gunpowder (in Gandalf's fireworks and Saruman's 'bombs') advancement in technology (in Middle-earth) is virtually stagnant.

It is quite interesting, however, that we haven't got a note about train among Saruman's devices. If anyone, I would expect Saruman to make such a thing. I even pondered the thought about the train being introduced to the Hobbits during his rulership of the Shire, but later rejected that idea, because from what davem quoted, already Bilbo knew about the train. It is possible, however, that Saruman had some train in his possession, but a) kept it hidden underground or more likely b) could've had plans for it, but didn't use it because he didn't have use for it yet. One could imagine, then, that if Saruman e.g. conquered Rohan, he would have built a nice long railway through the Horse-land to Edoras. (One can almost imagine an "alternate history" where a few years after the conquest of Rohan by Saruman the Rohirrim rebel bands will attack the trains a la Wild West, maybe even equipped by real pistols stolen from Saruman's supplies. )

[davem]

Ok. One thing that got me thinking is in the first draft of TH, where there is a clear reference to 'policemen on bicycles'. Now, this was removed, while the reference to an 'engine' was not. Why? Surely a reference to a policeman on a bicycle is less anachronistic than a reference to a railway engine.

However.....in the upcoming second volume of The History of the Hobbit we will finally get to read Tolkien's attempted re-write of TH in the style of LotR - will the 'engine' reference be left in?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Ok. One thing that got me thinking is in the first draft of TH, where there is a clear reference to 'policemen on bicycles'. Now, this was removed, while the reference to an 'engine' was not. Why? Surely a reference to a policeman on a bicycle is less anachronistic than a reference to a railway engine.

However.....in the upcoming second volume of The History of the Hobbit we will finally get to read Tolkien's attempted re-write of TH in the style of LotR - will the 'engine' reference be left in?

Only time will tell. However... what you mentioned about the reference is quite important for the "real train" image, since it supports what has been said here earlier. Mystery, mystery...
Also, I would like to point out once more, the original quote about express train does not come from the Hobbit, but from LotR itself - which I find quite important, on that matter.

Oh, and one side note. I hope no one is offended by me bringing this idea up, considering me a heretic spoiling the nice fantasy nature of ME with express trains or something like that. Though the idea itself might seem somewhat strange in ME, personally I find trains quite romantic (unless they are dirty and full of people and sprayed allover with graffiti) and prefer traveling with them above other means of transport in general - and probably also partially because of the fact that you can look at the scenery of the land you are moving through. And for me, having a sightseeing tour through ME on a train would surely be lovely experience, not at all ruining the Prof's world. (though still walking and "testing it on my own feet" will be even better)

[davem]

Of course, 'express train' need not imply a machine like a steam engine. In fact even an 'engine' need not necessarily refer to a mechanical device

train (n.)
c.1330, "a drawing out, delay," later "trailing part of a skirt" (c.1440), also "retinue, procession" (c.1440), from O.Fr. train (fem. traine), from trainer "to pull, draw," from V.L. *traginare, extended from *tragere "to pull," back formation from tractus, pp. of L. trahere "to pull, draw" (see tract (1)). Train of thought first attested 1651. The railroad sense is recorded from 1824, from notion of a "train" of carriages. British train-spotting "hobby of observing trains and recording locomotive numbers" is recorded from 1958.

engine
c.1300, from O.Fr. engin "skill, cleverness," also "war machine," from L. ingenium "inborn qualities, talent," from in- "in" + gen-, root of gignere "to beget, produce." At first meaning a trick or device, or any machine (especially military); sense of one that converts energy to mechanical power is 18c., especially of steam engines. Engineer "locomotive driver" is first attested 1839, Amer.Eng.

So a 'train' could be pulled by animals - a 'wagon train' for example, & an 'engine' is simply a 'clever device'.

In other words, one could, in fact, have both 'trains' & 'engines' in M-e without them needing to be even steam powered.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Linguistic possibilities, davem, true - but how would those usages of the words account for the "express"?!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not to mention that one would also need to identify what kind of a 'clever device' comes out of a tunnel, whistling...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Linguistic possibilities, davem, true - but how would those usages of the words account for the "express"?!

Well, an 'express train' is simply a train with a limited number of stops, so that doesn't present a problem. It could refer to a mule train, a wagon train - ie, a 'caravan' which has a single or perhaps a couple of stops. One assumes therefore that most trading in M-e would be done by 'train', & given the widely spaced communities these 'trains'/caravans would be 'express'.

Originally Posted by Legate

Not to mention that one would also need to identify what kind of a 'clever device' comes out of a tunnel, whistling...

A rabbit with a kettle on its head...

[The Sixth Wizard]

But then those things are relatively slow. Why would the hobbits relate them to a massive whizzing firework?

~Presenting Problems, Not Answers

[Feanorsdoom]

Interesting subject, and a passage I'm sure I passed over without much thought in my first readings. I see the "express train" as translatory license spoken of above. Unfortunately, in the Shire, there were presumably no regularly scheduled methods of transportation to equate it with beyond perhaps some form of postal communication with towns at its perimeter. Minus any institutional conveyance, I think we are left with a hobbit's view of fast-living outsiders, like the men who frequent Bree. Imagine that there may be regular equine postal stops at Bree for a general (human) northern M-e route, and we have something a hobbit might think of as an "express train".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

Unfortunately, in the Shire, there were presumably no regularly scheduled methods of transportation to equate it with beyond perhaps some form of postal communication with towns at its perimeter. Minus any institutional conveyance, I think we are left with a hobbit's view of fast-living outsiders, like the men who frequent Bree. Imagine that there may be regular equine postal stops at Bree for a general (human) northern M-e route, and we have something a hobbit might think of as an "express train".

But as Six pointed out quite well I think, why would they use the expression for a mule-drawn cart in connection with a huge loud flying firework dragon?

[Volo]

"The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."

"Poor Bilbo couldn't bear it any longer. At may never return he began to feel a shriek coming up inside, and very soon it burst out like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel."

So, what do we have here:

1. "express train like a dragon passing" (with bursts)
It's hard to make a slow caravan of wagons from this. Deffinitely refers to something fast. Though we shouldn't forget the "express"-part which means that the train is for passangers. So it can't be a mine cart either. And the "dragon"-part, doesn't it form the words "smoke" and "long", "big" and "wormish" in your mind?

2. "whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel" (with bursts)
It is even harder to imagine this refering to anything but a steam engine of a train.

First I thought that this could refer to some invention of Saruman, as seen in the film (if I'm not confusing things), or a mine cart. Now it is pretty impossible to connect this with Saruman or mine carts.

Sorry, Legate, I can only think of something like the train in Harry Potter from the phrases above, and I very much doubt that anything like that would exist in M-e. Though this is an interesting subject!

[Lalwendë]

Sorry, I can't get the image of those little ride-on steam trains you get in kids' parks out of my mind. Maybe some eccentric elderly men who liked having an uber train set to play with (under the guise of providing a 'service' to the local recreation department) left behind their model railway and the Hobbits later found it - of course it would be 'just their size'. Meh.

Hmm, thinking about Saruman and how far he and others had come in terms of technology, a steam train would not be entirely out of the question (though I could not place one in The Shire at all). Gandalf had developed some advanced ballistics with his Fireworks, Sauron seemed to be using advanced weaponry systems st the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, including flamethrowers and petrol-based ballistics. Saruman was already on to using gunpowder in weaponry, and Gandalf must have known about its uses too - maybe Boro, our fireworks expert can clarify whether fireworks must use gunpowder to work?

Historically, some developments were rapidly followed by others. Hmmm, my memory of the exact inventors is rusty, but I think it was Newcommen who developed the steam engine and it was a mere handful of years alter that the forst railways were being built. What, exactly, did Saruman have in operation down at Isengard?

There is also the possibility it refers to other kinds of train. That East Road sounds suspiciously well surfaced to me what with all the quick movements along it and the existence of little 'toll houses' when the Hobbits return at the end of RotK. Turnpikes? Maybe!

And of course there is the fact that The Shire seems suspiciously much more advanced than other societies in Middle-earth, what with its umbrellas, clocks and egalitarian system of Government. It's at the very least reflective of a regency village society and has a lot of the Edwardian too. It's certainly not medieval!

[Boromir88]

maybe Boro, our fireworks expert can clarify whether fireworks must use gunpowder to work?~Lal

Fireworks expert hey? Well I'm not a pyrotechnic chemist that creates them, but I can share the basic ingredients needed in fireworks and what creates those dazzling displays.

One of the needs (and probably it is the biggest one) is black powder. Black powder is necessary for two things, first the initial burst of the shell out of the tube and then also to ignite the time-delay fuse in the shell which sends the pellets or stars bursting out creating the colorful display. Basically stick a shell in a coardboard tube, and attach a fuse. In the shell there are seperate chambers, where in one is the black powder, and in another are what is called the 'stars.' And the stars are just little cubes of different chemicals. It's these chemicals that create the various colors...barium, sodium, aluminum...etc, just a wide range of these stars of various chemicals creates the reds, blues, greens...etc.

Because fireworks were first created by the Chinese not for entertainment purposes, but to scare of evil spirits. It's the black powder that creates the loud bang, and if you only use black powder you would only have a yellowish-orangish light. Where when you pack the shell with different chemicals you get different colors and that it is that discovery which led to fireworks being used for entertainment. Because, tt's not the actual explosion that creates the various color, what you're watching is these 'stars' of chemicals burning when they are thrown out of the shell. Then depending upon how you pack these 'stars' of chemicals in the shell determines the shape that is created when the stars are sent flying out of the shell.

There's a bunch of other complicated things that create different effects now adays. For instance, you can put an some sort of oxidizer which slows down the burning of the stars and that creates the drizzling effect, as the stars burn slower. But that's the basic firework in a nut'shell.'

You may be able to use something else to fuel the shell and create the explosion, but the chinese found black powder worked well for what they wanted...a loud bang which would scare away evil spirits. And over time fireworks grew into being used for dazzling entertainment, so we just stuck with black powder to creae the explosion and then packed the shell with various pellets of chemicals and depending upon their placement is what creates all the seperate colors and the shape of the firework. As the black powder is necessary for two things in the firework, to create that initial burst out of the tube, and then to set off the time-delay fuse which spreads the 'stars' out of the shell. When the firework reaches its maximum height, the time-delay fuse sends the stars flying out of shell. Hope you have learned all you need to know for creating your own fireworks now (just kidding by the way I do not advocate that )

As far as Gandalf's fireworks, my guess would be he enhances it's entertainment with his magic. As we are currently struggling with designs like a walmart smiley face. Where Gandalf has a firework that creates a dragon and a large mountain. So, either Gandalf understood even more complex physics than our pyrotechnic chemists have yet to figure out, or Gandalf magically enhances his fireworks for entertainment purposes.

[Feanorsdoom]

This isn't a modern invention by any means, but it has, in my opinion, an origin in Ea that's pretty illogical. Presumably first invented by the Valar and given to the Eldar or thought up by the Elves in Valinor, it just seems too large of a step. Why not an evolution in armor and weapons like in the real world? Is there some divine symbolism to a weapon of war (as opposed to hunting weapons) in a world where no 'people' could actually die? And, most importantly, why would the Noldor develop them in the first place at a time when there were no enemies? As far as I can remember (and I've been ODing on HoMe for months), there's no 'aha!' moment when Melkor says to the Noldor, "Now you're gonna need these because the Valar aren't your friends."

[HerenIstarion]

Legate of Amon Lanc

Though personally being in favour of 'Translator's Conceit' idea, I'll feed you some other idea if you really need to have railways in Middle-Earth...

HoME, Volume V, II. THE FALL OF NUMENOR.

The old line of the lands remained as a plain of air upon which only the Gods could walk, and the Eldar who faded as Men usurped the sun. But many of the Numenorie could see it or faintly see it; and tried to devise ships to sail on it. But they achieved only ships that would sail in Wilwa or lower air

Ibid, LOST ROAD. Chapter II, Alboin and Audoin

The world is not a machine that makes other machines after the fashion of Sauron

So you may consider words 'express-train' and 'engine' (this latter when it refers to a train, not engine in general, I suppose) not as things new and only known in the Shire, but as legends/rumours/memory of things that were, or might have been in Númenor, devised either by Númenoreans themselves (as ships to fly the air) or by Sauron (machines making machines. I, Saurobot, made these... ). Probably Sauron, unless they've used coal - just in his line, to cut trees and burn them to make a thing made of iron move

[Feanorsdoom]

HerenIstarion, although those passages don't explicitly speak of trains or steam-driven vehicles in general, the undoubted mention of Numenorian airplanes hit me like a brick when I first read it. It one of JRRT's ideas that I find most confounding in all his works, for, if they had gotten that far, how could they have not used it to greater effect or lose the knowledge later? One can imagine these flying ship to have been powered by fell magic of Sauron that was later taken away or the particular genius of Men who died in the Fall. Either way would round up the 'great civilization now perished' nicely, but oh, so little is actually said on the matter!

As far as locomotives, however, I think we are finally left with a gap. There were no mechanical trains in M-e of the Third Age, or there would have had to be a much greater foothold for an industrial revolution of Men, who surely would not do such things in a small enough way to only be mentioned by Hobbits in passing.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

in a world where no 'people' could actually die? And, most importantly, why would the Noldor develop them in the first place at a time when there were no enemies? As far as I can remember (and I've been ODing on HoMe for months), there's no 'aha!' moment when Melkor says to the Noldor, "Now you're gonna need these because the Valar aren't your friends."

This one puzzled JRRT, too, I think he finally decided that Orome gave them weapons for the Great March, when of course they would have needed them.

It's however worth mentioning that the Sindar appear to have been armed with axes and spears prior to the Noldor's return.

[narfforc]

I had always taken Ted Sandymans mill as a representation of his boyhood memories. The description of: a great brick building straddling the stream, which it fouled with a steaming and stinking outflow, add the fact that Sandyman is: grimy faced and black handed, also the great chimney and it is obvious that Sandyman is working/cleaning some kind of machinery, in fact it was filled with wheels and outlandish contraptions to grind more and faster according to one of the Cottons. Coal/Wood-Chimney-Steam are what I always thought was going on here, maybe I am wrong, what else is he up to, did Saruman import his Tekromancy into the Shire?. After Sharkey turns up there seems to be some sort of industry going on in the mill, but the ruffians are said to be carrying clubs and no other weapons, if the mill was now a smithy surely they would have iron/metal weapons.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

This isn't a modern invention by any means, but it has, in my opinion, an origin in Ea that's pretty illogical. Presumably first invented by the Valar and given to the Eldar or thought up by the Elves in Valinor, it just seems too large of a step. Why not an evolution in armor and weapons like in the real world? Is there some divine symbolism to a weapon of war (as opposed to hunting weapons) in a world where no 'people' could actually die? And, most importantly, why would the Noldor develop them in the first place at a time when there were no enemies? As far as I can remember (and I've been ODing on HoMe for months), there's no 'aha!' moment when Melkor says to the Noldor, "Now you're gonna need these because the Valar aren't your friends."

Is this not addressed in the Silmarillion?

High princes were Feanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwe, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possession.

....And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears.....And Feanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons,.... Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils

[Galin]

Morwen, yes that's from the Silmarillion of course, and Tolkien was still musing on the matter. See William Cloud Hickli's post above, which is based on text from the Later Quenta Silmarillion II, Morgoth's Ring.

'Now the Quendi had possessed weapons in Middle-earth, but not of their own devising. They had been made by Aule and sent as gifts by the hand of Orome, when it became known to the Valar that the Quendi were beset by prowling evils that had discovered the places of their dwelling beside Cuiviénen; and more were sent later for the defence of the Eldar upon the Great March to the shores of the Sea. ...' JRRT LQS (52a)

In 52b Feanor still makes a secret forge and etc in any case. See also Christopher Tolkien's commentary that follows these sections in the book.

[Feanorsdoom]

Yes, thanks for the reminder about Melkor in between the Chaining and the death of the Trees. It shows that he must have been contemplating how best to have Elves kill each other beforehand, because wouldn't need weapons himself, of course. Still, it brings the question of what versions of these JRRT intended. Britain didn't have an advanced weapons tradition until the Romans and Norse showed up. Did JRRT sketch swords or spears or talk about armor as closely as he did banners?

[Morwen]

Alright. But in both the Silmarillion and the quote from the Quenta Silmarillion that cite, we are provided with explanations, and IMHO, reasonable explanations as to how the Elves come to have weapons. And the explanations seem to answer the question of why there is no "evolution of in armour and weapons". So what I'm querying is Feanordoom's assertion that the appearance of weapons among the elves is illogical.

EDIT : Cross posted with Feanorsdoom

[Feanorsdoom]

No, Morwen, it was swords, specifically, but it's been answered both ways. My problem wasn't that they are there at all, but that they appeared as soon as needed, and swords are a very specialized weapon. It stands to reason, though, that they had both Melkor's influence early enough as well as plenty of time on the road to Valinor to develop pretty sophisticated weapons. One might ask the Valar how they started getting forged under their noses, but that's a whole other question.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by Feanorsdoom

One might ask the Valar how they started getting forged under their noses, but that's a whole other question.

I suppose the Noldor were a tricksy bunch. Still, the Noldor were probably always working on some new invention or other. So the Valar may not have immediately connected any surge in smithying with an arms race.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

After all Mahtan was a smith, and apparently devoid of any (conscious) evil intent, yet he it was who taught smithying to Feanor, especially the tempering of steel. It strikes me that the /idea/ of a sword isn't that great a reach*; it's the metallurgy required to make a decent one; and this Mahtan or other Noldor (advised by Aule) could well have developed out of sheer techno-curiosity, or endeavoring to produce better wood-axes, kitchen knives, and hunting weapons.


* The Aztecs had them, if you count a series of obsidian blades embedded in a stick as a 'sword.'

[Feanorsdoom]

I meant that the Valar are arguably naive by design, and seem to miss much that Elves or humans would be suspicious about. The Noldor building arms and armor for war in Valinor would be incomprehensible to them; what possible reason would they have to fight in paradise? Manwe himself is said to believe that Melkor was reformed, although Tulkas looked askance at him. Knowing the omen of Miriel's death, they should have at least been vigilant of other possibilities. If the Elves indeed had to fight off predators and monsters across M-e to get there, the Valar should at least have been wary of the well-trained, meat-eating fighters in their midst.

Sorry, off on a tangent, but there aren't that many modern marvels in M-e. Are there any out-of-place mechanics in Dale?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

It shows that he must have been contemplating how best to have Elves kill each other beforehand,

Feanorsdoom, thanks for my laugh of the day! There's just something about the way you said that that makes me smile.

[The Saucepan Man]

Mucking about on Google (when I should be working ), I found the following site and was reminded of this thread:

Middle-earth model railway

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Mucking about on Google (when I should be working ), I found the following site and was reminded of this thread:

Middle-earth model railway

Oh! Wonderful! And who was right here?

"Bree-Rivendell InterCity Konsortium (BRICK)"

!!!

[Knight of Gondor]

Not possible. Absolutely inconceivable for there to be a train in Middle-Earth. I don't mean to sound unkind, but the answer comes as much from personal desire for there NOT to be a train in Middle-Earth as much as conviction that Tolkien was speaking from metaphor and not from actual comparison.

The whole fantasy/medieval nature of Lord of the Rings is what makes it worth the mental journey. It is a world so different from ours, with inspiring characters and thrilling stories. The lack of technology is what makes it such a romantic, fanciful and perhaps even idealistic world. The deep blast of a train-whistle would pull us back to the real world, not draw us further in.

It seems to me that the technology tree of Middle-Earth had only reached so far as siege weapons and initial dealings with gunpowder or other explosives. They were used in the fireworks, and had only begun to be weaponized by Saruman. (One might expect that cannons would not be terribly distant developments.)