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Old 05-21-2007, 05:59 AM   #1
Elmo
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"Weel done, Cutty-sark!" -Mithril, Moria and Valinorean ship-building

Bit of a random title I know but watching the poor Cutty Sark burn down didn't just remind me of the time in 1997 when I went hilariously missing for three hours and was eventually picked up by the police when my family and I went out to see the last tea-clipper when she visited Aberdeen.

Not a nice memory, but anyhow it, also a bit randomly having recently rearead Bilbo's song in Rivendell, made me wonder how they managed to build Earendil's boat out of Mithril in Valinor, when according to Gandalf, Moria was the only place in the world where Mithril was found. How did they find the rare metal? It seems unlikely that there was trade between Khazad-dum and Valinor and I doubt Earendil himself took enough to rebuild his ship. Was it artistic license on Bilbo's part?
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:38 AM   #2
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Is Valinor included in the word "world", or does "the world" only mean the lands east of the Sea?

I doubt Aulë would have stored such a metal as mithril only in one place in Eä, so it's possible that it was found also in Valinor.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:33 AM   #3
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No, clearly it is implied in the world at that time.
We know that mithril was also found in Númenor:

Quote:
For that metal was found in Númenor. [Author's note.] – In "The Line of Elros" (p.232) Tar-Telemmaitë, the fifteenth Ruler of Númenor, is said to have been called so (i.e. "silver-handed") because of his love of silver, "and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril." But Gandalf said that mithril was found in Moria "alone in the world" (The Fellowship of the Ring II 4). ~ Unfinished Tales, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, note #31
Indeed, a strange thing, though I personally rather believe that Gandalf still said the truth, since Númenor was underwater and Aman had been taken away from the world.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:15 AM   #4
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Looking at Wikipedia, they mention that there are indications that Mithril was present in both Numenor and Aman in smaller quantities than in Moria. I wish that the reference would have been noted in the article, as I'm wondering if it was deduced by the building of a certain aforementioned ship.

Another interesting tidbit was that Moria might have been the only soure in the Third Age, which agrees nicely with The Might's thoughts.

Wikipedia's article on Mithril
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:47 AM   #5
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If memory serves, there's a footnote somewhere in Unfinished Tales that provides the basis for the speculation about mithril being found in Valinor and Númenor.

However, I'd like to address the Might:

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Originally Posted by the Might
No, clearly it is implied in the world at that time.
Actually...

In Tolkien's earlier writings, especially, "the world" quite often does NOT inclusively refer to Valinor. This was particularly the case in the The Book of Lost Tales, when the conception of the Straight Road and the the Round World after the Akallabêth had not yet been conceived. Tolkien several times refers to "the world" as "everywhere but Aman"--or what afterwards came to be named Aman.

I'm not sure how prevalent this usage of "the world" becomes after the Book of Lost Tales, but I think it would be unwise to write off the possibility of Aman having mithril simply on the basis of it having been "in the world".
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Old 05-21-2007, 11:21 AM   #6
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Just a couple of points:

Also Gandalf was talking mainly to the hobbits and the world for them was effectively Middle Earth.
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:01 PM   #7
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But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world; and thereit passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven.

Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Earendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow.

Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil
It's not said here that mithril was used to make the vessel "fair and marvellous".

Quote:
Originally posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Was it artistic license on Bilbo's part?
I think that this may be the case. The verses in question are made up by Bilbo, rather than a translated story, so it's quite possible that he took some liberties in his description. Take the 2nd verse of Bilbo's poem for example,... is Earendil's helmet really made of adamant? Also Bilbo's statement that "a ship then new they built for him" is at odds with the description in the Silmarillion that what the Valar did do was to hallow Vingilot itself and set it in the heavens.
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:11 PM   #8
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One wonders if Aragorn would have allowed Bilbo to take much artistic license. Remember his words, reported by Bilbo to Frodo later--about having "cheek" to write verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond?

Which isn't to say that Bilbo didn't....
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:26 PM   #9
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"As a matter of fact it was all mine. Except that Aragorn insisted on my putting in a green stone. He seemed to think it important. I don't know why. Otherwise he obviously thought the whole thing rather above my head, and he said that if I had cheek to make verses about Earendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair. I suppose he was right."

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This statement suggested to me that Aragorn was content to let Bilbo be. It is after all a poem, not a historical treatise. If Bilbo wishes to describe Earendil's ship as being made of mithril, Aragorn might wonder briefly where Bilbo got that notion but wouldn't spend a lot of time arguing with him about it. I mean are mithril ships any more far fetched than say, elven warrior princesses?
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