Eowyn vs. Aragorn

[Folwren]

Do you recall the scene in the Two Towers, wherein Eowyn pulls a sword from a chest and begins to swing it around? Aragorn walks up, as you'll recall, and as she turns about, swinging the sword, he catches it on his dagger blade.

"You have some skill with a blade," he says

In response, a sort of look ... annoyance or something passes over Eowyn's face. Then, suddenly, their arms sweep about and Aragorn is suddenly without defense and Eowyn's sword is at his throat. He is tense, and she is, too, but in a moment, he relaxes, and she turns away...

Tell me, in that sweep of the arms, did anyone get the impression that Eowyn made the move, put Aragorn off his guard, and then had her sword back to where she could kill him? Did you think, "Wow, Eowyn sure had him in a fix"? Or was it the opposite - Aragorn moved, freeing his dagger, and had the 'fight' under control?

A boy I know continues to argue with me (I wouldn't argue about it if he didn't keep bringing it up) that Eowyn had nothing to do with it and Aragorn had her whipped, wherein I believe, it really was meant to be the other way around. I told him, the impression the audience got was that Eowyn had him whipped, and he fired back with, "Can you ask them?" And I said that I would...and so I am, with you all.

What're your thoughts?

-- Folwren

[Oddwen]

Of course she had him beat. She's a woman, isn't she?


But yeah, I'm sure Philippa Boyens & all wanted to show that she didn't want to follow her men into battle just to watch.

[MatthewM]

I don't think Eowyn ever, ever had Aragorn. If you're talking in terms of love, especially. His wisdom surpassed and understood her almost child-like love for him, in my opinion. By the sword, I still don't think she would have Aragorn, although I love Eowyn, and she did kill the Witch-King, I must give the credit where it is due. But I still don't think she could have had Aragorn in any way, shape, or form. Sorry girls.

[Finduilas]

I think that the impression given in the movie was that Eowyn beat Aragorn. I think that Eowyn wouldn't have be able to for real, but I think that the movie makers wanted her to get Aragorn of guard. I watched that part last night, and it seems as if she puts his dagger out of the way, and then holds her sword to his throat.

For the record, I think that this was wrong for the movie makers to do, but will say, that other things that they did bothered me more.

[Kath]

I don't think she ever had him in the sense of having beaten him. I do think he was a little surprised. Probably figured she was just waving a sword around, had maybe had a little experience with it but nothing much, and was startled by the fact she really did know what to do with it. However, even with the position she had him in I think he would have regained the upper hand pretty fast if he had wanted to.

[Folwren]

I don't think that if it had been a serious encounter, Aragorn would have approached her in such a manner. Of course, in a real fight, he would win. But at that moment right then and there, did she not put him off his guard and have him in a rather tight place? (Anyway, didn't it appear so?)

I'm not asking you to think about it. I'm asking you, what was your impression, just watching it? Quit analizing it. What did you see?

I know I saw Eowyn put Aragorn off his guard and put him in a tight place that, had she continued the stroke, would have ended up with him killed. Yes, maybe Aragorn wasn't really fighting. Yes, maybe Eowyn did catch him by surprise. Yes, maybe Aragorn was just expecting her to back down and concede to his statement. It doesn't matter - Eowyn removed the dagger from between his body and her sword, and you can't deny it. If it was Aragorn's move, then he made an awful mistake.

-- Folwren

[Ataralasse]

I saw it go something like this...

First, she was just startled because she didn't hear him coming. She wasn't annoyed at him, just a tiny bit freaked. He is her crush, after all.

Then he says she has "some" skill with a blade. Ticked, she makes a move: she challenges him: "Try me." She wanted to show him that she had more than just "some" skill with a blade, or that whatever she might lack in skill she made up for in spirit or courage or whatnot. Aragorn refused to fight, and she began her short "The women of this country..." speech.

In short, I didn't really see it as a "who was in charge" sort of move. I saw it as a challenge. She didn't want to beat him yet. She wanted to fight him first.

Or maybe ... ::thinks::

Maybe she thought she already won, but she wanted to see what he'd do. Sort of like 'checkmate': you haven't actually captured the king (king? heh) -- you don't have to: he can't make any more moves. But Aragorn neither accepted nor rejected that she'd won, and that ticked her off. "The women of this country...&c."

Hmm ... I guess I'm sitting the fence on this one. >_<

[Beleg Cuthalion]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

For the record, I think that this was wrong for the movie makers to do, but will say, that other things that they did bothered me more.

Like the fact that he parried edge on edge in that scene? Very, very bad.

[Anguirel]

"What's this, a Ranger caught off his guard again? What do we pay you for?"

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

"What's this, a Ranger caught off his guard again? What do we pay you for?"

"Shut up and drool over my good looks!"


As to whether Eowyn had beaten Aragorn...I really doubt that a warrior with at least sixty years experience, arguably the finest swordsman of his time, could be bested by a twenty four year old girl. I think he was just playing with her.

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Beleg Cuthalion

Like the fact that he parried edge on edge in that scene? Very, very bad.

Well, I will admit that I hadn't noticed that, at least I don't think I had noticed it, I might have. I was talking about... well, Foley probably wouldn't like me turning this into a thread of all the things I dislike

As to whether Eowyn had beaten Aragorn...I really doubt that a warrior with at least sixty years experience, arguably the finest swordsman of his time, could be bested by a twenty four year old girl. I think he was just playing with her.

Of course she couldn't, but he wasn't fighting. He was just playing with her, and therefore, when she twisted his blade out of the way, she surprised him, and since he wasn't fighting he let her win.

I just watched this the other night, she made the move, he had nothing to do with it. She decided she didn't want him blocking her sword so she dealt with it.

[Folwren]

Dang. He was playing a pretty dangerous game, then, and I think he lost.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

As to whether Eowyn had beaten Aragorn...I really doubt that a warrior with at least sixty years experience, arguably the finest swordsman of his time, could be bested by a twenty four year old girl. I think he was just playing with her.

Exactly! Just like Gandalf, lying prone on the floor, staffless, was just toying with the Witch-King. Remember, my pretties, this is Peter Jackson's universe, and sixty years of experience may have lost it all to one foolish misstep. And, from experience, there was a time as a bachelor when the presence of the female kind increased my stupidity quotient exponentially, decreased my dexterity and dropped my charisma by 5 points.

And regarding knives and princesses, there's that at the end of this post.

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Kath

I don't think she ever had him in the sense of having beaten him. I do think he was a little surprised. Probably figured she was just waving a sword around, had maybe had a little experience with it but nothing much, and was startled by the fact she really did know what to do with it. However, even with the position she had him in I think he would have regained the upper hand pretty fast if he had wanted to.

I agree; I don't think Aragorn was playing with her. He was interrupting her testosterone kick by catching her blade with his. (And yes, blade on blade, very bad.) He wasn't playing, and he wasn't trying to start something. He was just stopping the (irresponsible?) swooshing around to say something. I don't believe he expected her to swing his dagger (it was only his dagger, after all!) out of the way.

I think Ataralasse's analysis may be right; she may have been trying to show that she's not just playing around with a sword, that she really can handle it. A lesser lesser person would concede her point. A lesser person would immediately go back on the defensive to prove a point of his own. But Aragorn, son of Arathorn, heir to the throne of Gondor, has no point to prove to the lady of Rohan, and neither concedes nor contests the point.

Do I think she caught him off guard, yes. Do I think that she could have won that battle, no. Aragorn knew there was no serious threat; she did not mean him harm, and could not have beaten him if she had.

[Quempel]

Eowyn destroyed the witch king.
Frodo destroyed Sauron and Gollum.
Gandalf destroyed the Balrog.
Aragorn did what any king would do took the credit.

Could he best Eowyn, maybe, but he couldn't best the witch king, so maybe not. Of course he is old by the time he meets Eowyn, she could probably just out run him. Or feed him stew.

[Nimrodel_9]

Of course she had him beat. She's a woman, isn't she?

Very nice.

Yeah, she had him beat. Not to say that if they really went at it she would win. I think he was just not expecting it.

[Snowdog]

Did Eowyn have Aragorn whipped?
Maybe for awhile, starting with Aragorn's taking note of the beautiful blonde in white he saw. She likely thought she did, beginning with his taking the cup from her at the Helms Deep victory party. But most likely Aragorn just decided to take advantage of her for the time he was with the Rohirrim after tasting her cooking, for when he was done with her he tried sneaking off in the early morn down the Paths of the Dead.

Did Aragorn have Eowyn whipped? Apparently so since she was the one all broken up about his leaving.

Seriously... Surely Aragorn did not take the spar seriously, knowing she wouldn't hurt him. But then again he did have a habit of being caught at unawares by women...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Ataralasse

I saw it go something like this...

First, she was just startled because she didn't hear him coming. She wasn't annoyed at him, just a tiny bit freaked. He is her crush, after all.

Then he says she has "some" skill with a blade. Ticked, she makes a move: she challenges him: "Try me." She wanted to show him that she had more than just "some" skill with a blade, or that whatever she might lack in skill she made up for in spirit or courage or whatnot. Aragorn refused to fight, and she began her short "The women of this country..." speech.

In short, I didn't really see it as a "who was in charge" sort of move. I saw it as a challenge. She didn't want to beat him yet. She wanted to fight him first.

Or maybe ... ::thinks::

Maybe she thought she already won, but she wanted to see what he'd do. Sort of like 'checkmate': you haven't actually captured the king (king? heh) -- you don't have to: he can't make any more moves. But Aragorn neither accepted nor rejected that she'd won, and that ticked her off. "The women of this country...&c."

Hmm ... I guess I'm sitting the fence on this one. >_<

well that is true hmmm...

[Groin Redbeard]

I think the whole purpose of that scene was to show Eowyn's skill. Aragorn was in a relaxed posture, clearly just teasing her. Not to say that Eowyn's more skilled than Aragorn, but to say that she is not without skill.

[Essex]

another thread on "who would have beaten the other" - just like the mother of all threads Gandalf v the Witch King.

I'm now waiting for elightened people from both sides of the argument to come out and tell us one would have beaten the other with 100% certainly!!!!

[Sauron the White]

Redbeard has it pretty much right. Aragorn is the consumate fighter with skill that would would compare to Babe Ruth or Michael Jordan in their respective fields. He did not even bat an eye to Eowyn and - while she has more skill than otherwise might be initially guessed at - it was nothing compared to Aragorn. He was just playing cat and mouse with her.

But it was cute.

[Finduilas]

I have no doubt that Aragorn would have won in a real combat or anything. Just, at that particular moment, Eowyn had the better of him.

-- Folwren

[Finduilas]

In explaination of post just above. Folwren wrote it, and appearantly didn't notice I was logged on. Sorry.

~Finduilas~

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Redbeard has it pretty much right. Aragorn is the consumate fighter with skill that would would compare to Babe Ruth or Michael Jordan in their respective fields. He did not even bat an eye to Eowyn and - while she has more skill than otherwise might be initially guessed at - it was nothing compared to Aragorn. He was just playing cat and mouse with her.

But what of the standard canards of:

• David versus Goliath

• The strongest/mightiest doesn't always win

• This is Peter Jackson's LotR

• Logic is futile

But it was cute.

Eowyn seemed a little unhinged at the moment (i.e. Lost Eomer, lost Theodred, lost her job in caring for Theoden, lost Wormtongue, ...), and wasn't there something more useful she would have been doing than to be swinging a sword around 'indoors?' I wouldn't let my little ones play with as much as an umbrella.

[Quempel]

Which mega bad person did Aragorn defeat?

Eowyn defeated Wiki
Frodo defeated Sauron
Aragorn had to have the help of Rohan and the Army of the Dead to defeat the orcs at Pel Fields. He had to have his soon to be father-in-law reforge his sword. He had to rely on Gandalf to save him at Helms Deep. His greatest work was to be the bait for Sauron, while Frodo destroyed the ring. Oh he also acted as guard and delivery person for the Hobbits, and he sort of failed at that.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Quempel

Which mega bad person did Aragorn defeat?

Lurtz, countless orcs (walking and riding), Wargs, Uruks, Five of the Nazgul, the Mouth of Sauron, the King of the Dead, Elrond (having daughters myself, this may have been Aragorn's greatest threat), my credulity when he went cliff-diving and got horse-kissed...

Impressive enough list to stack against the resume of a shieldmaiden, having only killed countless orcs, an oliphaunt and the Witch-King.

[Quempel]

Well then there's Frodo. Frodo did more in one ring toss than Aragorn did ever. Last time I checked Frodo wasn't trained in much of anything.

[Sauron the White]

Yes - and the pilot of the Enola Gay wiped out tens of thousands with a single bomb - but that does not make him a better fighter than the world Heavyweight boxing champion.

[Quempel]

Funny I don't recall Smokin' Joe Lewis ending WWII all by himself.

[Sir Kohran]

Frodo defeated Sauron

Hardly. The only people in Middle-Earth who can claim to have done that are Elendil and Gil-Galad (or Isildur, depending on the version). All Frodo did was do something that led to Sauron's defeat.

If it was Sauron in one corner of the ring (pun intended) and Frodo opposite him, somehow I would doubt whether Frodo could 'defeat' him

[Quempel]

Doesn't defeat mean to destroy, to nullify? Doesn't seem to me that Sauron was either, he was simply set back a step, not defeated. Not until Frodo threw in the ring was Sauron destroyed and nullified. Had Gil-galad, ect. actually defeated him, there would be no need for any of the Fellowship, none whatsoever. No need for Aragorn to be raised in Rivendale. No need for the Fellowship. No need for Helms Deep, no need for Pel Fields, no need for any of it whatsoever. Had he been defeated, none of it would have happened.

Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur failed to defeat Sauron. Had they succeeded, that battle would have been the last battle in ME and there would be no need of any of the rest of the story, that battle would have won the war. They won one battle, that's it. They did not win the war.

It was Frodo that ended the war. It was his small insignificant non-warrior like actions that ended the war. One would think that is what Tolkien was actually trying to convey, that even the smallest person can change the world, since that is what he repeatedly wrote about.

And if you want to argue real world non-military people changing the world, the two biggest influences in the world were not warriors of any sort. Those two people being Jesus and Muhammad. Jesus so influenced the world that the superpower warrior world of Rome changed religions and influenced much of the way we now live in the west, and he never once raised a sword to battle. The world has been so influenced by these two men that we elect our leaders because they will either not let gays marry or they will get the infidels. Neither were warriors.

And neither was Frodo, yet he did more for ME than Aragorn ever could. Aragorn did not have the spirit, purity or ability to destroy the ring, it wasn't in him, and all the warrior training in the world could not give him that, because it was not something he could ever attain, it was a true nobility that he could vaguely feel in himself. He recognized it in Frodo and thus wanted to help him. Eowyn possesed some of this nobility and Aragorn recognized this too, he wasn't playing cat and mouse with her, he realized she was willing to lay down her life and fight for what she believed in, and he honored that and he also realized a person willing to lay down their life for their family and beliefs can and often do defeat the military.

[Folwren]

Good post, Quempel...however...Frodo, in the end, failed, too. He did not throw the ring into the fire. I do not suggest that he did not do an extremely great deed and completed an amazing quest almost to the end, but he did not do what he had set out to do.

I wouldn't compare Frodo and Aragorn. Their paths were different and their rolls non-comparable, to my mind.

Besides, we're talking about the movies here. In the movie, Frodo practically is on the exact same level as Aragorn and they are almost comparable. We should have this discussion in the book threads.

-- Folwren

[Sauron the White]

The last few points, in my humble opinion, totally miss the point of this thread. The point was about the fighting skills of Eowyn vs. Aragorn. We are talking about individual fighting skill. We were not considering the employment of the equal of an atomic weapon (aka - The Ring) in Middle-earth. Aragorn stood alone in his fighting skill. Period.

Cross posted with Folwren who brings up an excellent point about Frodo and the ring. Spot on.

[Quempel]

Aragorn is not alone in his fighting skill. There are several Elf Lords that could best him in a heart beat. He learned his fighting skills from Elrond and sons...do you not think any of the three could best him if they wanted to?

By pure physical strength he could have bested Eowyn. But he also realized she would keep fighting. And any good warrior knows that someone who is willing to die for their beliefs is the worst enemy to come up against, because they will continue to fight until they are dead.

And yes so Frodo didn't toss the ring in, it was Gollum. So I suppose technically Gollum is the real hero.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I do not suggest that he did not do an extremely great deed and completed an amazing quest almost to the end, but he did not do what he had set out to do.

Poor Frodo... misjudged every so often

Originally Posted by Letter #246

His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that.

Meanwhile, Gollum:

Originally Posted by Quempel

So I suppose technically Gollum is the real hero.

Originally Posted by Letter #181

Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him.

[Sauron the White]

from Quempel

Aragorn is not alone in his fighting skill. There are several Elf Lords that could best him in a heart beat. He learned his fighting skills from Elrond and sons...do you not think any of the three could best him if they wanted to?

Good point and I cannot argue with it. I was limiting my praise of Aragorns warrior prowess to the world of Men. I was not including other races of the Free Peoples in awarding Argorn the Middle-earth Heavyweight Championship .

By pure physical strength he could have bested Eowyn. But he also realized she would keep fighting. And any good warrior knows that someone who is willing to die for their beliefs is the worst enemy to come up against, because they will continue to fight until they are dead.

How do you know that Aragorn realized this claim of yours concerning Eowyn? Maybe she would have such resolve but I hardly see Aragorn as a quitter either. So where is the advantage there? In comic books and (to borrow a phrase from davem) "thud and blunder" novels they do fight until every last limb has been hacked off. However, I hardly see that as even the reality of the world of LOTR.

How long do you think it would have taken Aragorn to knock the sword from the arm of Eowyn if he applied all his skills and strength? I think it would have happened rather quickly despite all of her so called determination and beliefs.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Poor Frodo... misjudged every so often

Oh, I do not misjudge Frodo. He is my second favorite character (seconded only to Sam). He is an incredible, wonderful, strong hobbit who's character is no simple thing to realize at one glance.

And, no, I don't think Gollum is the true hero.

And Aragorn is not the best fighter ever. I never suggested such a thing. However, having said that, I will add that his experience and his capabilities are (were) nothing to sneeze at.

I think that that part in the movie was badly done, misrepresenting Aragorn in an attempt to represent Eowyn as something she wasn't quite. I have nothing to pick with the protrayal of Eowyn in the movies. I think they did a good job. However, in the LotR world, I don't think that a woman should be allowed to 'kick butt', as it's sometimes put - particularly Aragorn's.

With all due respect,

Folwren

[Folwren]

What I mean to say is - it was made to look as though Eowyn (for however little time and regardless of whether or not in the end Aragorn would have eventually beaten her in a fight) had the better of Aragorn. And it should not have been so.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

How long do you think it would have taken Aragorn to knock the sword from the arm of Eowyn if he applied all his skills and strength? I think it would have happened rather quickly despite all of her so called determination and beliefs.

Well he was 80.

And even if he had taken the sword she would have kept fighting. This is something that happens all the time. Example both the Viet Nam and Iraq war. When people or person is willing to step up and fight for their way of life, family and beliefs they do not stop. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog and all that.

Why do I think he realized this, because of her saying It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden, and those who have not swords can still die upon them.

Plus Aragorn also said this to Eowyn 'Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised' He was talking about her and to her about her valor and willingness to fight.

They both understood that even though Aragorn was the stronger more trained warrior, that Eowyn had an unstopable spirit. And we must remember, if we are talking about the movie here, Aragorn was not nearly as invested in Gondor as Eowyn was in Rohan at the point of this scene. He was still a reluctant king, where as she was completely invested in Rohan, so much so that Theoden said It shall be so. Let the heralds announce to the folk that the Lady Éowyn will lead them!

[Folwren]

However, all this speculation is useless, because nothing would have ever resulted in a fight that required Eowyn to continue fighting after she had been disarmed. Why do you suppose they would have even had a friendly sparring match? That wasn't either of their purposes.