The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-09-2007, 10:47 AM   #1
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,648
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pippin on OED

Check this out. It came from the OED word of the day. Pay special attention to definition 4a, now we know where he got his name!

Quote:
pippin, n. DRAFT REVISION June 2006


Brit. /ppn/, U.S. /ppn/ Forms: ME pipyn, ME popyn, ME pypen, ME pypin, ME pypioun, ME pypyn, ME pypyne, ME-15 pepyn, ME-15 pepyne, ME-17 pipin, ME-17 (19- rare) pepin, 15 pepine, 15 pippyn, 15 pyppen, 15 pyppin, 15 (18- Eng. regional (Cheshire)) peppin, 15-16 pippine, 15-16 pipping, 15- pippin, 16 pepion, 16 peppine (Sc.), 16 piepin, 16 pupping, 16-17 (18 Eng. regional (north.)) pippen. [< Anglo-Norman pepin, pepine, popin and Middle French pepin (French pépin) seed or pip of a fleshy fruit (c1175 in Old French), seedling apple-tree (early 13th cent. in Old French; now regional (Normandy)), of uncertain origin: prob. ult. a derivative of an expressive Romance base meaning ‘small’ (see Französisches etymol. Wörterbuch s.v. pep-); cf. Spanish pepita seed, kernel (see PEPITA n.), and perh. Italian regional (Tuscany) pippo, pippolo grain, seed, kernel. Cf. (< French) Middle Dutch pippinc, puppinc (Dutch pipping, pupping), Middle Low German pippinc.
Connection with classical Latin pep PEPON n. is unlikely.
With form pepion cf. French pépion (c1660; now regional); with form pupping perh. cf. early modern Dutch pupping (see above).
In sense 1c after Spanish pepita PEPITA n.(cf. French pépin, in the same sense (1617)).
With sense 3a perh. cf. the following example of uncertain meaning:¶c1450 in T. Wright & R. P. Wülcker Anglo-Saxon & Old Eng. Vocab. (1884) I. 562/1 Acumen [perh. read Acrumen, i.e. a crab- apple], anglice, a popyn.
It is unclear whether the following early example (in sense 1) is to be interpreted as Middle English or Anglo-Norman:¶1348-9 in J. T. Fowler Extracts Acct. Rolls Abbey of Durham (1899) II. 549 In duabus libr. de Resyns sanz pepyn empt. apud Ebor., 2 s. 3 d.
Attested earlier as a surname: Steph. Pypin (1297), although it is unclear whether this reflects the Anglo-Norman or the Middle English word.]

1. a. A seed or pip of any of various fleshy fruits. Now Eng. regional (chiefly north.).
The use of pippin appears to have included all the kinds of fruit seed for which pip (PIP n.2) is now used, and other kinds in addition.

a1382 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (Bodl. 959) Num. vi. 4 What yng may be of vyne of graap dried vnto e pepyn [v.r. popyn; a1425 L.V. draf; gloss. In Ebreu it is, fro the rynde til to the litil greynes that ben in the myddis of the grape; L. acinum] ei sholyn not etyn. a1398 J. TREVISA tr. Bartholomaeus Anglicus De Proprietatibus Rerum (BL Add.) f. 257, The pepyns of grapes hatte acini. a1400 (a1325) Cursor Mundi (Vesp.) 1417 Adam..Doluen..was..In e dale at hat ebron; e pipins [a1400 Göt pepinis; a1400 Fairf. cornys; a1400 Trin. Cambr. curnels] war don vnder his tung. 1440 Promp. Parv. (Harl. 221) 401 Pypyne [?a1475 Winch. Pypyn] of vyne, or grape, acinus, vel acinum. c1503 R. ARNOLD Chron. f. lxiij/2, Yf thou wyll haue many rooses..thou muste take the harde pepyns of the same rooses that bee right rype and sowe hem. 1578 H. LYTE tr. R. Dodoens Niewe Herball VI. xlii. 712 In the middle of the fruite [sc. the pear] there is a coare with kernels or peppins. 1601 P. HOLLAND tr. Pliny Hist. World I. 447 The inner stones or pepins, which in some grapes are but single, or one alone. 1747 J. RELPH Misc. Poems 95 A pippin frae an apple fair I cut, And clwose atween my thoom and finger put. 1828 W. CARR Dial. Craven (ed. 2), Pippin, the seed of an apple. 1862 C. C. ROBINSON Dial. Leeds & Neighbourhood 339 Each pippin as it is arrived at, is thrown at random over the head, and a simple ‘nomony’ repeated, when so many apples as there have been pippins thrown, will be forthcoming, it is expected. 1868 J. C. ATKINSON Gloss. Cleveland Dial., Pippin, the pip or seed of the apple and like fruits. 1907 N.E.D. s.v. Pippin, Pippin-fruit, a fruit containing ‘pippins’ or pips. 1928 A. E. PEASE Dict. Dial N. Riding Yorks. 96/1 Pippin, the pip of any fruit. 1997 W. ROLLINSON Cumbrian Dict. 123 Pippins, pips of apples or pears.
b. A part of a pea embryo, perh. the radicle. Obs. rare.

a1450 in T. Austin Two 15th-cent. Cookery-bks. (1888) 32 Take a seve..& ley in pesyn er-on..& waysshe hem clene a-way e holys, en putte hem in a potte, & ey wyl alle to-falle with a lytil boylynge, to pereye, saue e whyte Pepyn is er-in, & at is a gode syth; en Salt hem & serue hem forth.
c. In extended use: a grain of gold, resembling a pip in size and shape. Obs.

1604 E. GRIMESTONE tr. J. de Acosta Nat. & Morall Hist. Indies IV. iv. 213 They call them pippins [Sp. pepitas], for that commonly they are like to pippins or seeds of melons. 1604 E. GRIMESTONE tr. J. de Acosta Nat. & Morall Hist. Indies IV. iv. 213 They finde little of this golde in pippin [Sp. en pepita]. 1613 S. PURCHAS Pilgrimage VIII. ii. 607 Their golde is found either in Graines which they call the Pippins because they are like..Seedes of Melons..or in powder.
2. A grape. Obs.

a1382 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (Bodl. 959) Ecclus. xxxiii. 16, I to e laste wakede & as at gedere pepynes [v.r. clustris; a1425 L.V. draf; L. acinos] after e grape kutteris in e blessing of god. ?c1475 Catholicon Anglicum (BL Add.) f. 94, A pepyn or A grapp: acinus, acinum.
3. a. Formerly: a kind of sweet apple, typically late-ripening, fine-flavoured, and having good keeping qualities. Now (freq. with distinguishing word): any of numerous fine-flavoured varieties of dessert apple.
Blenheim, fall-, golden-, Newark, Newtown, orange, Sturmer pippin, etc.: see the first element.

1432 LYDGATE Minor Poems (1934) II. 642 er were eke treen..ffulle off ffruytes lade..Orenges, almondis..Lymons, dates..Pypyns, quynces blaunderell to disport. a1475 J. RUSSELL Bk. Nurture 714 in F. J. Furnivall Early Eng. Meals & Manners (1931) 50 Afftur is, delicatis mo: Blaunderelle, or pepyns, with carawey in confite, Waffurs to ete, ypocras to drynk with delite. 1578 J. LYLY Euphues f. 46, The sowre crab..as well as the sweet pyppin. 1600 SHAKESPEARE Henry IV, Pt. 2 V. iii. 2 We will eate a last yeeres pippen of mine owne graffing. 1617 J. MINSHEU Ductor in Linguas 9783 A pupping-apple or Pippin. 1629 J. PARKINSON Paradisi in Sole 587 This is a pretty way to have Pippins, Pomewaters, or any other sorts of Apples growing low. 1710 W. SALMON Family Dict. (ed. 5) 78 Such [cider] as is made of the choicest Apples, as..Kentish Pippin, Kirton Pippin, Holland Pippin [etc.]. 1769 E. RAFFALD Experienced Eng. Housekeeper II. viii. 193 Take twelve Pippins, pare them and scrape out the Cores. 1835 G. F. HOFFMAN Winter in Far West II. 122 A large basket, containing as many of the finest pippins as we could stow about our persons, was..brought to the road-side. 1866 J. LINDLEY & T. MOORE Treasury Bot. 945/2 Some [apples] of English origin have acquired almost universal celebrity; for instance, the Golden Pippin, Ribston Pippin,..Blenheim Pippin, etc.; and recently Cox's Orange Pippin has been brought into notice. 1908 Times 10 Oct. 4/4 A fruit-room whose shelves..are stored with abundance of all the codlins, pippins, pearmains, greenings and russets that are worth the growing. 1993 Harper's Mag. July 41/1 Muriel befriended the young fruit vendors; she collected their proud sporty lore, becoming an expert on ideal characteristics of today's two-cent pippin, tomorrow's two-cent winesap.
b. as sound (also healthy, etc.) as a pippin and variants: in perfect health or condition. Now rare.

1845 N. P. WILLIS Dashes at Life with Free Pencil 93 Her voice had a tone clear as the ring of a silver dollar; and her lungs must have been as sound as a pippin. 1886 H. BAUMANN Londinismen 139/1 He's as sound as a pippin. 1910 H. BELLOC Verses 81, I said to Heart, ‘How goes it?’ Heart replied: ‘Right as a Ribstone Pippin!’ But it lied. 1975 New Yorker 26 May 33/2 The old Portagee is cheerful, healthy as a pippin apple.
4. a. A person. Originally derogatory: a young, foolish, or naive person. In later use chiefly as a term of endearment: a dear; a darling; a pet. Now rare.

1664 C. COTTON Scarronides IV. 100 Thou'rt a precious Pepin, To think to steal so slily from me. 1675 C. COTTON Burlesque upon Burlesque 69 A precious Pepin, and a trim, A right Arch-bird, I'le warrant him. 1791 W. BECKFORD Let. 24 Nov. in G. Chapman Beckford (1937) x. 237 Do my Pippinmy Codlinmy NonpareilDo my Lovelymake up a few pils. c1821 ‘W. T. MONCRIEFF’ Tom & Jerry (1828) II. v. 49 Go it, my pippins. 1846 Swell's Night Guide 49 Now, my pippins, I'll just ax you which was the rankest sell? 1888 H. EVANS Brighton Beach Loafer (ed. 3) vi. 35 ‘Ime on, my cocker,’ I ses. ‘Guv us yer and orn it my pippin, an arf a quid on account.’ 1895 Punch 15 June 285/1 No slow Surrey-siders, my pippin, but smart bits o' frock from Mayfair. 1916 R. W. SERVICE Rhymes Red Cross Man 43 Don't be oneasy, my pippin.
b. colloq. (orig. U.S.). An excellent, pleasing, or beautiful person or thing. Cf. PIP n.2 3.

1897 Chicago Record 17 Sept. 4/5 This sister was fair to look upon. In fact, it was frequently remarked that she was a Pippin. 1920 P. G. WODEHOUSE Jill the Reckless xvi. 237 ‘We shall..open in Baltimore next Monday with practically a different piece. And it's going to be a pippin, believe me,’ said our hero modestly. 1993 Sunday Times (Nexis) 21 Nov. (Features section), The Queen opened the glittering new galleries and made a pippin of a speech.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMPOUNDS

C1. General attrib.

a. pippin cider n.

1662 J. BEALE Let. 31 Jan. in H. Oldenburg Corr. (1966) II. 17 In all out trialls *pippin cider decayd. 1766 Compl. Farmer s.v. Cyder, They..found their pepin cyder not so pleasant as their moyle or red streak cyder. 1868 Harper's Mag. Aug. 352/1 There never was any Champagne bottled in France..equal to the sparkle of the real pippin cider of any new apple orchard. 1904 Stevens Point (Wisconsin) Daily Jrnl. 20 May 3/2, I always wanted to taste this North Carolina cider to compare it with my Pippin cider.
pippin jelly n.

1705 W. SALMON Family Dict. (ed. 3) 177 Marmalade of oranges:..take two pound of fine Loaf-Sugar, a pint of *Pippin Jelly, [etc.]. 1848 W. H. AINSWORTH Lancashire Witches I. ix, I pray you taste this pippin jelly..or some leach of almonds. 2001 Daily Tel. (Nexis) 29 Dec. 65 In the 17th century, pippin jellies and marmalades were characterised by the delicate flavour of the apples.
pippin pie n.

1592 R. GREENE Disput. Conny-catcher sig. B2, A *pipping Pye that cost in the Market foure pence. a1658 B. RUDYERD Prince D'Amour 83 Upon Friday night there was a general Fast proclaimed, suppers forbidden in the Princes Hall, except Eggs in Moon-shine and Pippin-pies. 1780 S. KELLET et al. Compl. Coll. Cookery Receipts 13 (heading) A Pippin Pie, or any good baking Apples. 1874 ‘M. HARLAND’ Common Sense in Househ. (new ed.) 359 Pippin pies. 12 fine pippins, pared and grated. 1 lb. white sugar. lb. butter. 2001 San Luis Obispo Tribune (Nexis) 12 Oct. 26 My friend and I were full, but if you want a two-pie lunch, I saw a Caramel Apple Pippin Pie at the end of the menu for $4.75.
pippin trade n. Obs.

1725 D. DEFOE Compl. Eng. Tradesman I. iii. 34 If a merchant comes to me to hire a small ship of me, and tells me 'tis for the *pipin trade..the meaning is, that she is to run to Seville for oranges, or to Malaga for lemons.
pippin tree n.

1597 N. BRETON Wil of Wit 29 Is not the *Pippin tree, to bee esteemed aboue the Crabbe tree? 1677 W. SAMPSON Rector's Bk., Clayworth 10 Jan. (1910) 34 Sett..2 pippin-trees ith Orchyard. 1785 G. WASHINGTON Diary 12 Nov. (1925) II. 435 Received two New Town and 2 Golden Pippin trees. 1862 Godey's Lady's Bk. Oct. 354 The pippin tree which has no fruit in the October time. 1994 San Jose (Calif.) Mercury News (Nexis) 9 Oct. 1B, At the Cupertino orchard, Peter Kramer..scanned the leafy branches of a pippin tree.
b. pippin-grower n. Obs.

1833 H. MARTINEAU Tale of Tyne i, If I were to turn pippin-monger instead of *pippin-grower.
pippin-monger n. Obs.

1607 Fayre Mayde of Exchange in T. Heywood Wks. (1874) II. 57 You are a *pippinmonger to call me Russetting or apple-john. 1724 W. SALKELD Rep. Cases King's Bench (ed. 3) III. 351 A Pippin-Monger is no Trade within the Statute 5 Eliz. but a Brewer is. 1833 H. MARTINEAU Tale of Tyne i, If I were to turn pippin-monger instead of pippin-grower.
pippin-pelting n. and adj. Obs.

1835 Edinb. Rev. 61 406 Hissing, hooting, *pippin-pelting, and driving them from the boards. 1896 M. J. CAWEIN Paths in North Adams Daily Transcript (Electronic text) 25 May, A path that takes me..Beneath the pippin-pelting tree.
C2. pippin face n. now rare a round, red, or (esp.) wrinkled face resembling a pippin.

1598 J. MARSTON Metamorph. Pigmalions Image 56 He neuer durst vnto these Ladies show His *pippin face. 1836 DICKENS Pickwick Papers (1837) vi. 52 The hard-headed man with the pippin-face. 1872 W. BLACK Strange Adventures Phaeton vi, This old shepherd, with his withered pippin face. 1946 J. W. DAY Harvest Adventure xii. 195 One old man, with a Palmerstonian pippin face.
pippin-faced adj. now rare having a round, red, or wrinkled face; cf. pippin face n.

1836 DICKENS Pickwick Papers (1837) vi. 51 A little hard-headed, Ripstone *pippin-faced man. 1853 G. A. SALA in Househ. Words 14 May 254/1 Old officials (pippin-faced, white-headed old gentlemen mostly). 1884 Harper's Mag. Feb. 352/1 The little bandy-legged pippin-faced gardener was coolly resting on his spade while he addressed his master within. 1931 S. KAYE-SMITH Susan Spray i. 3 Ruth was fat and pippin-faced.
pippin fruit n. now rare a fruit grown from pips.

1675 C. COTTON (title) The planters manual: being instructions for the raising, planting, and cultivating all sorts of fruit-trees, whether stone-fruits or *pepin-fruits. 1798 Beauties Harrogate & Knaresbro' 23 Ribstone-hall fam'd for its Pippin fruit. 1851 in E. T. Freedley Opportunities for Industry (1859) 240 My pippin fruit is all picked by hand, by men from ladders, into half-bushel baskets. 1914 C. A. MERCIER Astrol. in Med. i. 17 Luna the cucumber, the gourd, pepin fruits, i.e. apples and pears, and lettuce.
pippin-hearted adj. Obs. timid; (also) kind-hearted, generous.

1809 ‘D. KNICKERBOCKER’ Hist. N.Y. (1861) 171 They might have been the meekest, most *pippin-hearted little men in the world. 1847 Republican Compiler (Gettysburg, Pa.) 15 Mar. 1/2 This pippin-hearted old gentleman.
pippin squeezer n. Obs. an insignificant, young, or feeble individual, a lightweight; cf. sense 4a.

1779 L. MACNALLY Apotheosis of Punch iii. 27 No *pippin-squeezer I, but will drink free As any lady of the Coterie; Whether plain brandy, wine, or ratifia. 1789 C. TOWNLEY Mem. (ed. 2) I. 89 His veyther will make a pippin squeezer and a puppy of un.
pippin squire n. Obs. = APPLE-SQUIRE n.

1600 S. ROWLANDS Letting of Humors Blood Epigram xxxiii. sig. C4, A Dogges yeoman, or some *pippin Squier. 1630 J. TAYLOR Wks. 23 Lord who would take him for a pippin Squire, That's so bedaub'd with lace and rich attire?
pippin tea n. Obs. an infusion of pippin apples.

1709 E. BAYNARD in J. Floyer Anc. Revived (rev. ed.) II. 323 For his constant Drink..*Pippin-Thea,..with Syrup of Rasberries. 1824 R. HUMPHREYS Mem. J. Decastro 107 He had taken a small portion of pippin tea, which was his accustomed pure and simple, but nutritious, beverage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DERIVATIVES

pippined adj. (in forms pypened, pypyned) Obs. having pips, seeded.

?1440 tr. Palladius De Re Rustica (Fitzw.) III. 72 But knowe is this that grapis feire & greete, *Pypened [v.r. Pypyned; L. grani] hard & drie, hit is to take Vnto the bord.
pippiner n. (in form pipiner) Obs. a ship engaged in transporting fruit (see quot. 1725).

1725 D. DEFOE Compl. Eng. Tradesman I. iii. 34 If a merchant comes to me to hire a small ship of me, and tells me 'tis for the pipin trade; or to buy a vessel, and tells me he intends to make a *pipiner of her, the meaning is, that she is to run to Seville for oranges, or to Malaga for lemons.
__________________
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 02:05 PM   #2
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
There's no end to intriguing stuff in the OED. I wonder what words and entries Tolkien worked on, if any.

I'd always though Pippen was just a seedy character.

Last edited by Bęthberry; 04-09-2007 at 02:22 PM.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 02:20 PM   #3
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
There's no end to intriguing stuff in the OED. I wonder what words and entires Tolkien worked on, if any.

I'd always though Pippen was just a seedy character.
He worked on the W's. Ring of Words is a fantastic book covering his time at the OED.

Introduction here (PDF file)

Last edited by davem; 04-09-2007 at 02:25 PM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 08:35 PM   #4
MatthewM
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
MatthewM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 628
MatthewM has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to MatthewM
Tolkien

What's OED?
__________________
"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring
MatthewM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2007, 09:56 PM   #5
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewM
What's OED?
The Oxford English Dictionary, which Oxford calls the definitive dictionary of the English language.

It is unlike other dictionaries in that they list only current meanings of words while the OED attempts to record every meaning of a word ever had over the last thousand years. And that's a half million words, through their changes in meaning and spelling and pronounciation, as evidenced from texts. It provides examples of the historical meanings with quotations from sources as early as the Old English manuscripts Tolkien studied to the most contemporary sources from around the world.

Look here on the official site for more information about it. It's fairly unique as a dictionary, although, like all human endeavours, it has its blind spots and weaknesses.

The story of its creation can be read in this book: Caught in the Web of Words: James Murray and the Oxford English Dictionary

As davem points out, Tolkien worked on it early in his career.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2007, 12:18 PM   #6
MatthewM
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
MatthewM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 628
MatthewM has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to MatthewM
Tolkien

Wow, that's amazing. Thanks a lot!
__________________
"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring
MatthewM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 01:37 AM   #7
sarathy
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7
sarathy has just left Hobbiton.
Long time since i read the book

I'm not too sure, I suppose Pippin has a twin, doesn't he?
sarathy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:15 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.