Sam and the Ring

[MatthewM]

When Sam first puts on the Ring as he hears the Orcs coming after leaving Frodo's presumably dead body-

Wouldn't Sauron know the Ring was being used, and so close to him? Why didn't minions upon minions come onto the area in which Sam used the Ring? I don't truly understand how it is only before Cirith Ungol he realizes he can't use the Ring because the Dark Lord would see him.

[mormegil]

I believe he wasn't in Mordor yet and that he was indeed close to finding him but Sam removed it just in time. Had he crossed the border into Mordor Sam would have been lost and Sauron would have known him.

[Raynor]

Sauron apparently felt the ring, but was hindered in identifiying it due to the shadows he has put around as a defence

Originally Posted by The Tower Of Cirith Ungol, RotK

Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than ever, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I think Sauron wasn't too bright. If he couldn't see through the clouds around Barad-Dur and Mordor, how'd he see anything?

[Selmo]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Sauron apparently felt the ring, but was hindered in identifiying it due to the shadows he has put around as a defence

I don't think that Sauron felt the Ring at all.
What Sam felt, through the Ring, was Sauron's power constantly watching over Mordor. Sauron's mind was not concentrated on Cirith Ungol in particular. The vague reports of a spy in that area would not have concerned him. What could a spy learn? That a large army had left Minas Morgal? Gondor would know that soon enough anyway. That an even bigger army was encamped around Gogoroth? That knowledge getting out could only be to Sauron's advantage.
Sauron's greatest fear was that Aragorn, who had shown himself in the Orthanc Stone, had the Ring. He wasn't looking for it on his own borders.

Had Sam tried to use the Ring, Sauron might have known it, but Sam didn't attempt to use the Ring's power. He didn't try to dominate the will of others, the Ring's real power. He just took advantage of accidental by-products of the ring's power: invisibility and sharpened awareness.
.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Rotk, Mount Doom, page 917

Of all the slaves of the Dark Lord, only the Nazgul could have warned him of the peril that crept, small but indomitable, into the very heart of his guarded realm.

This shows that orcs can't feel the Ring, and Sauron could not feel it even in the heart of his realm (though you may argue it wasn't being used at the time). I don't think Sauron's awareness of the Ring was so great after being separated from it for so long, and it was more of the Ring wanting him.

~Your friendly Wizard~

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Selmo

What Sam felt, through the Ring, was Sauron's power constantly watching over Mordor.

However, I doubt that Sauron constantly watches around Mordor; the quote mentions greater "urgency", which is more indicative of Sauron's intent, although, he remains in the 'dark'.

Originally Posted by Selmo

The vague reports of a spy in that area would not have concerned him.

Debatable

Originally Posted by The Choices of Master Samwise, TTT

- Now, now, growled Shagrat. I have my orders. And it s more than my belly’s worth, or yours, to break ‘em. _Any_ trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugburz at once, and to Lugburz _only_. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.

[MatthewM]

Thanks guys, good answers. So pretty much we gather that Sauron had little knowledge of where his Ring lay, until Aragorn revealed himself through the Palantir, which made Sauron believe it was in Aragorn's possession. I guess after all the years seperated from it, Sauron really didn't have much "mental" power to "feel out" the Ring and its presence, even when it is right on his borders.

[Raynor]

Sauron really didn't have much "mental" power to "feel out" the Ring and its presence, even when it is right on his borders.

I believe he does have it, he was able to feel Frodo from very far away, at Amon Hen; he would have pinpointed him, if Gandalf hadn't stepped in (as he later recounts):

Originally Posted by The Breaking of the Fellowship, FotR

And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir; he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I think Sauron wasn't too bright. If he couldn't see through the clouds around Barad-Dur and Mordor, how'd he see anything?

It was Sauron's own arrogance (feeling that his realm was impregnable) that Gandalf and the Council made use of.

[CSteefel]

The question is whether a line of sight is required for Sauron to see or sense the Ring. I suspect it has more to do with the particular relationship between the bearer of the Ring and the Ring itself. So, for example, Sauron knew instantly when Frodo put the Ring on in Mount Doom, but then Frodo basically challenged Sauron directly at this point. The same question comes up with Gollum, who carried the Ring for 500 years in the caverns of the Misty Mountains and was never sensed by Sauron.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

The question is whether a line of sight is required for Sauron to see or sense the Ring. I suspect it has more to do with the particular relationship between the bearer of the Ring and the Ring itself. So, for example, Sauron knew instantly when Frodo put the Ring on in Mount Doom, but then Frodo basically challenged Sauron directly at this point. The same question comes up with Gollum, who carried the Ring for 500 years in the caverns of the Misty Mountains and was never sensed by Sauron.

Nice insight. And good quote you pulled out there, Raynor.

The question about Gollum is certaintly a good one...how do we explain that? Was it because Sauron's power had not retained the strength as it had when Frodo carried it? I'd assume this is so...

And about the relationships, do you think maybe Sam, in just getting the Ring with no intention to claim it, was better able to avoid Sauron's gaze rather than Frodo at Amon Hen and (obviously) in Mt. Doom?

[Raynor]

And about the relationships, do you think maybe Sam, in just getting the Ring with no intention to claim it, was better able to avoid Sauron's gaze rather than Frodo at Amon Hen and (obviously) in Mt. Doom?

I don't think it is about Sauron's relationships with the wielder of the ring, but his relation to the ring, and if anything helps/hinders his perception. At Amon Hen, the particularity of that place of sight helped him almost pinpoint Frodo. At the entrance of Mordor, Sauron's shadow hindered his percetion; all these are sustained with quotes. As far as Sauron not sensing Gollum, I think it is purely a matter of distance; he was too far for him to sense it, and there was nothing to favor that.

[Lord Melkor]

It may be interesting to note that the nature of Amon Hen may have amplified the effect when Frodo put on the Ring. The Seat of Seeing allowed people to see the surrounding lands as if through a telescope and may have accidently 'amplified' the 'I am here' beacon the Ringbearer would have on Sauron. This would make sense since Sauron detected neither Gollum during his many long years under the Misty Mountains, nor Bilbo during his journey through Mirkwood, in particularly during his battle with the spiders during which Bilbo used the Ring extensively while Sauron resided in Dol Guldur.

EDIT: Ah, bugger. I see Raynor already made the same observation about Amon Hen. That's what you get when you hit 'Reply' too soon.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't think it is about Sauron's relationships with the wielder of the ring, but his relation to the ring, and if anything helps/hinders his perception. At Amon Hen, the particularity of that place of sight helped him almost pinpoint Frodo. At the entrance of Mordor, Sauron's shadow hindered his percetion; all these are sustained with quotes. As far as Sauron not sensing Gollum, I think it is purely a matter of distance; he was too far for him to sense it, and there was nothing to favor that.

Overall I have to agree here. The Nazgul were able to sense the Ring in and near the Shire, but clearly Sauron had no feeling whatsoever that the Ring was there for 70 years. And same for Gollum, when he had it in the Misty Mountains for 500 years.

There seems to be a role for both of line of sight (Amon Hen) and for proximity, at least in the case of Nazgul (who are presumably weaker proxies of Sauron himself in this regard), since they were able to sense the presence of the Ring when Frodo put it on in The Prancing Pony at Bree.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

There seems to be a role for both of line of sight (Amon Hen) and for proximity, at least in the case of Nazgul (who are presumably weaker proxies of Sauron himself in this regard), since they were able to sense the presence of the Ring when Frodo put it on in The Prancing Pony at Bree.

Yes, I agree...that's interesting to look at as well- how the Nazgul sensed the Ring in the Shire and at Bree- perhaps since they knew it was somewhere near, their senses were heightened...or maybe they always had this power, for is that not their main purpose besides leading Sauron's minions?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Yes, I agree...that's interesting to look at as well- how the Nazgul sensed the Ring in the Shire and at Bree- perhaps since they knew it was somewhere near, their senses were heightened...or maybe they always had this power, for is that not their main purpose besides leading Sauron's minions?

In this regard also we see that the Witch King seems to sense the presence of the Ring

...the Rider halted suddenly, right before the entrance of the bridge, and behind him all the host stood still. There was a pause, a dead silence. Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within this valley. This way and that turned the dark head helmed and crowned with fear, sweeping the shadows with unseen eyes.

Although the possible role of Frodo's will in turning aside his thought is also mentioned:

Maybe the elven-hoods defied his unseen eyes, and the mind of his small enemy, being strengthened, had turned aside his thought. But he was in haste...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

or maybe they always had this power

I would say this is the case; concerning the perception of the ring by the nazgul and the recurring motive of barriers, it is stated in Unfinished Tales:

Originally Posted by Hunt for the ring

[Khamul] was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement and that the Nazgul would not touch the "Elvish" waters of Baranduin

Originally Posted by Notes to 'Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire'

Of Khamul it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgul after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.